R justnomil

I guess this could go under both JUSTNOMIL and JUSTNOSO. Background on current MIL situation is HERE. Long story short, MIL disowned SO when he confronted how he felt about her actions and boundary stomping.
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SO and DS had a wedding to go to on Saturday the 3rd. I was invited too, but chose to go to my little brothers graduation instead. We knew that MIL was going to be at the wedding, so we came up with a plan: Do not approach MIL. If MIL approaches SO or DS and tries to talk, then to politely say that now was not the time or place, and walk away - as to not cause a scene at the wedding.
What happened was not what we planned. (－‸ლ)
MIL came up to SO and the wedding AND GAVE HIM A HUG. HE GAVE HER A HUG BACK. They sat at the SAME TABLE and SMALL TALKED. I messaged him asking how it was going, and he said that this had happened. I told him that I was disappointed, and what had happened to the plan? He said that he 'thought I said it was OK'. I messaged my DS, and asked how the reception was (he has ADHD and gets bored fast). DS said that MIL had commented on how thick his stomach was, and tried correcting his table manners at the table. My SO did nothing to enforce the boundaries, and left my DS feeling like crap.
Both me and SO agreed that this would not have happened if I was there, but I should not have to be there to make sure that my SO keeps a boundary.
MIL is at fault for acting like none of this ever happened, and playing on SO's emotions. She KNOWS that her emotional incest have left him unable to say no to her for YEARS. Her disowning him hurt him so bad - it still does as he is now confused. I don't know how to help him though this mess that he has created for us. He feels so bad for messing this up, but I am afraid of things going back to where they were.
The BEST thing of this 'break' if you will from the MIL (for me) has been that my SO apologized for not believing how I feel about his mother - that he finally saw though her and saw what I have been feeling for YEARS. I don't know what comes next.
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Yes, I use both son and DS. They both mean the same person. Just saw that I used both - lol.

I guess this could go under both JUSTNOMIL and JUSTNOSO. Background on current MIL situation is HERE. Long story short, MIL disowned SO when he confronted how he felt about her actions and boundary stomping. ---------------------
SO and DS had a wedding to go to on Saturday the 3rd. I was invited too, but chose to go to my little brothers graduation instead. We knew that MIL was going to be at the wedding, so we came up with a plan: Do not approach MIL. If MIL approaches SO or DS and tries to talk, then to politely say that now was not the time or place, and walk away - as to not cause a scene at the wedding.
What happened was not what we planned. (－‸ლ)
MIL came up to SO and the wedding AND GAVE HIM A HUG. HE GAVE HER A HUG BACK. They sat at the SAME TABLE and SMALL TALKED. I messaged him asking how it was going, and he said that this had happened. I told him that I was disappointed, and what had happened to the plan? He said that he 'thought I said it was OK'. I messaged my DS, and asked how the reception was (he has ADHD and gets bored fast). DS said that MIL had commented on how thick his stomach was, and tried correcting his table manners at the table. My SO did nothing to enforce the boundaries, and left my DS feeling like crap.
Both me and SO agreed that this would not have happened if I was there, but I should not have to be there to make sure that my SO keeps a boundary.
MIL is at fault for acting like none of this ever happened, and playing on SO's emotions. She KNOWS that her emotional incest have left him unable to say no to her for YEARS. Her disowning him hurt him so bad - it still does as he is now confused. I don't know how to help him though this mess that he has created for us. He feels so bad for messing this up, but I am afraid of things going back to where they were.
The BEST thing of this 'break' if you will from the MIL (for me) has been that my SO apologized for not believing how I feel about his mother - that he finally saw though her and saw what I have been feeling for YEARS. I don't know what comes next.
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Yes, I use both son and DS. They both mean the same person. Just saw that I used both - lol.

Please Do Not share, repost, or otherwise use this text outside of JUSTNOMIL :)
My FMIL is visiting, we’re halfway through the visit and I’m struggling! Maybe I’m overreacting and overthinking everything. I want us to get along, we live far away and I only see her 1-2 times per year, but I am so overwhelmed and exhausted!
Here are some of the more bitter moments so far:
-Told me I need to ‘let SO be a man’ after I checked oil/fluids in his car and tried to troubleshoot a car issue (he asked me to help, I’m pretty handy in general).
-Rarely has an opinion of what she wants to do, eat, etc. it’s always ‘we need to leave the house right now and do something!’ but when given suggestions she doesn’t care, says it all sounds fine to her. We’ll make a plan to go a beach or park and in the car it’s all ‘It better not be crowded, I just hate being around people’, and constantly asking what the plan is. Then the hikes might be too long, the weather is too cold, too much driving, waterfalls are noisy, ‘people and their dogs’, she doesn’t like the food, chairs are not right, too shady/too sunny.. always something and always said aloud.
My SO really wants her to have a good time, but is also super indecisive and now I realize he’s probably just afraid she won’t like what we do, even though anything we do won’t be right.
-Asks me every morning if she can wake up SO to get on with the day and go out. Then when he’s up and ready to leave she’s suddenly super hungry and hasn’t eaten so we need to first make breakfast/lunch, or she isn’t dressed or prepared at all and we end up waiting around even longer.
-When it’s the two of us, she tries to talk about my SO and her concerns. Sometimes it’s really uncomfortable like she told me she thinks his friends aren’t intellectual and he needs to be around people that are more mentally stimulating for him?!
-I’m currently working towards a PhD, my SO has master’s degree and a good job, he’s content with what he’s doing. She keeps telling him he should go back to school to get a PhD, even though he tells her that’s not a goal for him.
-The three of us were out to dinner and she asked if she could wear my engagement ring ‘for like an hour’ because it was so pretty.. She went on to say that her ex-husband never gave her a diamond and she always wanted to be with someone who would give her one. (I said no).
-My dogs are well trained, and we continue to work on their behavior. We both asked her to not give them table scraps, and explained one needs to lose weight, and both will start begging/reverting to bad behaviors. She told me she just hates being wasteful and the following days kept ‘accidentally’ dropping food.
-She constantly asks me to try on clothes while shopping, even when I say I don’t want to, or that I don’t care for it.
-One day she was cooking dinner, and my SO said he was going for a run. She started asking him to do a bunch of really small favors one after another. He finally leaves for his run, and not 10 min later she’s trying to convince me we should just eat without him because he’s taking too long.
But then again, here I am complaining about someone to strangers on the internet.. maybe I’m also not a nice person :(

Where we left off: Bea and David cut off MIL after being told by a mutual friend that she had gone to attorney to start pursuing a case for grandparents' rights.
UPDATE: MIL goes further out to sea of crazy. Bea presents her side of the story on justnomil Attempted reconciliation. Failed reconciliation. A secret move! MIL really has no self awareness, plans to have a PI track her son and granddaughters down.
It's a wicked ride y'all! MIL/Grandma is on the fast lane of self destruction in golden car of entitled and no self awareness.
https://www.reddit.com/BestofRedditorUpdates/comments/13wsuoi/shes_back_my_f50_daughter_in_law_24f_gave_birth/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button

Original post is here: https://www.reddit.com/JUSTNOMIL/comments/11zxs2c/it_was_the_final_straw_i_am_now_permanently_no/
It's been a couple of months and my mom can't not be a heinous bitch.
First of all, after I sent her a short email letting her know she'd screwed up massively this time and letting her know she was blocked I talked to my sister who lives in the same area. (I am blissfully in an entirely different state.)
Apparently my oldest nephew was with my dad at the time and when they got back to my parents house my mom doubled down on the crazy by demanding answers about physical biology from my nephew. To which my nephew replied, "I dunno, whatever makes people feel right is what matters I guess." That was apparently not the right answer and she stormed off.
Then she sent me an email. I have not read it. I let my husband read it and he told me there is no reason for me to look at it. It's just her saying she has a right to post what she wants on her Facebook, she's allowed to have her beliefs, and she didn't mean to hurt my daughter. No actual apology.
I got a phone call from her the week before Mother's Day but sent it to Voicemail and she didn't leave one. I've gotten a few benign texts from my dad but the only replies I can come up with are snarky, so I haven't sent anything back.
But the bit that really irks me. The part that really makes me just nauseated with disgust is this:
My oldest daughter graduated from high school this last week. She's 22 and it took her longer than most kids, she had an IEP and had to go to a special school within the district that helped her with her special needs.
Well, my parents sent her $100 graduation gift card. Which is sweet, right? Except that my second daughter (the one who's Trans) worked her ass off and got her G.E.D. last summer while battling medical issues. They didn't even acknowledge her then. I called excited about how well she did on the tests and how she scored so high on some of them that she actually earned college credit. So it isn't like they weren't told.
I can't send the gift card back, but I am pissed. This kind of blatant favoritism and manipulation is EXACTLY why I won't ever pick up the phone when I see it's them. They burned the bridge and then salted the ashes.

I am not the Original Poster. That was u/throwRA_rorotheMIL. She then created a second account: u/Throwawaydisownedson. She posted in relationship_advice, AmItheAsshole and legaladvice. And her own page.
I had changed letters to names in the previous BORU post here. I used those same names in her update posts for clarity.
Trigger Warning: pre-eclampsia, threatening suicide, psychiatric facility
Mood Spoiler: maddening and wtf
New Updates are marked with *****\*
Original Post: March 9, 2023
Title: My (F 50) Daughter in law (24F) gave birth and doesn't seem to want a relationship with me, making it difficult to have a relationship with my son (31M) and new granddaughter
Hello Reddit, TLDR: I'm looking for advice on how to build a relationship with my daughter in law, and get over the rift she's causing since giving birth.
My son (David, 31) has been married to my daughter in law (Bea, 24?) since September of 2020. Due to the pandemic I never really got to know her because they only dated for about a year before they got married, and I didn't know about her until they had dated for about 6 months.
I love my son very much, but I feel like our relationship has been rocky since they git married. He has a daughter from a previous relationship who is 10, and since they got together I haven't had the same relationship with her. I know this is partially because he moved out of my house (very suddenly without really saying anything I may add), and I no longer get her on his weekends. I try to get them to bring her to visit when they have her, but usually I only see her once a month or so, and lately it has felt like she has been more distant when she visits. I think this is because Bea says negative things about me around her, and I find that unfair.
They just had a baby at the end of January. She was induced due to pre eclampsia and in labor for 3 days before having a c section. I had been in an accident a few weeks prior and don't have a vehicle, and my son refused to pick me up to be there for the labor at all or to see the baby in the hospital, but her parents got to see the baby and were in the parking lot the entire time. I called him while she was in labor a few times, but on the second day after her water broke I called him and heard her snap at him to get off the phone and he refused to accept any calls after that. I just wanted to know thst the three of them were okay though! She was in the hospital 2 days after the c section, and they wouldn't stop to visit me on their way home after the birth because she was hurting, even though she had pain killers she could have taken and she "didn't feel right" according to my son. This is when I became concerned she had PPD. My daughter ended up picking up her prescriptions and some groceries for them and got to see the baby that night (her and Bea have a relationship that is apparently pretty good).
I was supposed to visit a couple days after they got home, but she ended up insisting something was wrong and went back to the doctor who apparently sent her to the hospital. My son told me they diagnosed her with post partum preeclampsia, but I was pretty certain that that was only something that happened during pregnancy and went away after birth so I was pretty sure he was confused. The day after they admitted her again, 5 days after the baby being born with everyone meeting her but me, was my birthday. I called her around 8 that morning to see what was really going on but she didn't answer. A while later my son called me and wished me a happy birthday and asked why I had called Bea. I admit I snapped at him and said SHE should be returning my call, because I called HER. I hung up on him and maybe 5 minutes later she called me.
I told her she should have called me and that I wanted to hear her voice and hear from her what was going on since my son gets confused. I then asked her if this was a mental or physical issue, and she went silent before saying physical. I asked of she was sure, and she got kind of snippy and said they had padding on her bed because she was a seizure risk and she couldn't be alone with her newborn, so she was pretty sure. I didn't comment on her tone because I was sure she was stressed.
She was released her the next day, and they came and visited me while I was at my daughters watching her two kids on their way home so I could see the baby. I offered her some pillows to sit on (my son said she "basically gave birth both ways", even though I knew this wasn't true I wondered if she had some soreness that made him think this), and she refused my hospitality saying she was fine and felt pretty good.
Two weeks later my son picked me up and brought me to their home to visit. I stayed for a few hours, and she didn't really make any effort to talk to me. She was just quiet and sat on the couch. When my son took me home I asked why she was so unhospitable, and he said I had been rude while she was in the hospital. That she shouldn't have had to call me, and that I shouldn't have asked if it was a mental or physical problem because he had already told me it was physical. He also said I shouldn't have posted anything on Facebook before her about the baby being born, and that I was rude when he called to make me take it down. She doesn't post on social media very often so I didn't think it would be a big deal.
He hasn't picked me up to see the baby because he says he needs to be there to help with the baby, and they won't bring the baby to me because he says the baby isn't allowed in my house.
I told my son I'm planning to quit my job to babysit for them, but I haven't even gotten her return to work date and she hasn't once thanked me for doing it. Overall I feel like she's holding onto some very petty things and is using them to keep me from my son and granddaughters. I want a relationship with her, but I am missing some critical bonding time with the baby and I am going to struggle to forgive her for it. Especially over petty nonsense she won't even bring up to talk to me.
I'm really wanting to send a text and lay all my feelings out for her and just hash it out, but I understand there are probably cultural differences at play with all of this too, so I could use some advice on what to say.
Relevant Comment: (I took out some from my original BORU Post for length.)
Commenter: Lady, if you don't pull your head out of your ass, you're not going to be part of their lives at all. You're not owed nearly any of what you seem to think you are. When it comes to their baby, they don't owe you crap.

1. Your son had two priorities when his wife was in labor. His wife and their baby. Not you. He didn't have time to come pick you up or talk to you on the phone. Have you ever heard of a taxi cab?
2. She shouldn't have to take a pain pill just so they can stop by and see you on their way home. How incredibly selfish of you. They did the right thing and went straight home.
3. Are you seriously questioning a doctor's diagnosis? Do you really think it's appropriate to ask her if it's physical or mental? Are you mental?
4. You're lucky anyone called you back at all. They are tired and are learning how to care for their newborn and that is after your DIL had a complicated labor and delivery and complications after birth. No one has the emotional bandwidth to deal with your entitlement.
5. You inconvenienced your son and had him pick you up and drive you home. Again, taxi, Uber, Lyft were better options. Then you're complaining his wife, who is exhausted and still healing was inhospitable. I'm guessing she was saying plenty to you in her head but was to polite to actually verbalize it.
6. Do they even want you babysitting their baby? Did they actually ask this of you or did you just decree that this is what is happening?
7. You do not post baby news on Facebook without the parents permission. You were rude and overstepping.
8. If you want to send them a text, send them a sincere apology for being a pushy, entitled, pain in the ass and promise you'll behave better in the future.

OOP's response:
I'm a grandparent and do deserve to be in my grandchildrens life. I also deserve not to have my eldest granddaughter turned against me. Saying they owe me nothing is incorrect, and courts would agree with that. I love them both so I don't want it to come to that, but I am OWED that.

1. If he would have came the first night before she was in real labor he wouldn't have needed to talk to me. We don't have taxi cabs, and the uber would have been well put of my budget.
2. She refused to take any of the pain killers once discharged, period. That was selfish of her. And I had food for them too, so my son wouldn't have had to cook. It wasn't just for me to see the baby.
3. No, I was question if my son had the right information. He's relayed wrong things before.
4. I understand that from her perspective after reading some of the comments. However in my family it's just common to call back regardless especially after having a baby. I see it's a cultural difference.
5. I can't uber to where they live otherwise I would be there every day! If that was an option I woukd have definitely jumped on it instead of having him pick me up, but uber isn't I their tiny town.
6. I told my son after I heard Bea telling my daughter about her struggle to find reputable daycare without a year long wait and how she was scared for the safety of her baby. They won't have to worry if I watch her!
7. My son just said not to post pictures. I didn't realize announcing I was a grandma again woukd be a big deal. I deleted it.
8. I told my son I was sorry for hurting her feelings when he told me. I've always apologized to him when he's told me I've done something wrong in her eyes, whether I think it was wrong or not. I don't want to hurt her feelings ever. I want her to know she doesn't have to run to my son though, she can come to me. And I want a chance to explain myself to her.

Post in Legal Advice: March 24, 2023 (2 weeks later) (post is deleted)
I'm seeking advice on getting grandparent rights in Indiana. My son has two daughters with two different women. The oldest is 10, and he and her mother were never married (no custody agreement, they just have an informal agreement). The youngest is almost 2 months old, and he and her mother are married.
I was under the impression that any grandparent could petition for custody/visitation in the US, but the way I'm reading it I can't unless my son is incarcerated or they aren't married? Is this correct?
What do I need to do to seek joint custody of my granddaughters? What do I need to build a solid case? I've already tried resolving this without going this drastic, but his wife doesn't want to work with me.
Commenters point out that she does not qualify for grandparent's rights in this scenario- she saw them at Christmas and they have to able parents:
I was under the impression that grandparents rights were for when a parent is keeping a child from having a relationship with the grandparents? Visitation would be more then once every 3 months or once a month wouldn't it? I don't feel like there is much of a relationship left with any of them to torpedo. So if I sacrifice a relationship with them to have a relationship with my granddaughters that would be fine."People draw attention to her previous post and that she's angry her son moved out:
I CAN'T travel to them currently - if I could I would be over there as often as I could be. I have apologized even though I don't think I was wrong. If she felt slighted by anything I said I apologized for it. Really, though, I don't think it should matter. You don't use kids as pawns. I can have a relationship with my granddaughters without her - or I should be able to. That's what I thought grandparents rights were for. To make sure parents couldn't stop an essential relationship with grandparents without a damn good reason (like abuse, drug use, etc). Also. He didn't need my permission to move. I just didn't appreciate that he gave no indication he was leaving.
"I have apologized for everything she felt I did wrong, against my better judgement. I don't feel like I shoukd have to continue to beg. My son says shes not preventing me from seeing them and appreciates my apologies, but I still haven't seen my grandchildren."
Update Post: March 30, 2023 (3 weeks from OG post)
Well, I apologized to my daughter in law for all the things my son listed. Since I had received feedback about it being my son's job to "handle" his family I told him my apologies to pass along, and then I waited. However, I got no response from Bea. No thank you, no trying to bury the hatchet, nothing.
So, last Friday I made an appointment with an attorney to discuss grandparents rights and had that appointment on Tuesday. The lawyer told me I had a good chance with my older granddaughter, but would likely get no where with the baby. I filled out some paperwork to get the process started, but Tuesday night I was questioning if I was doing the right thing. I called one of my friends to discuss, and was seriously considering not moving forward with it after talking to her.
Then yesterday I received this message from Bea:
"[Me] this is [Bea] I just wanted to let you know that [friend] told us you're intending to go for grandparent rights, and also shared everything you've had to say about me. Let me first say that I have not once kept the either of the girls from you, and I certainly have not kept [son] from you. He is a grown ass man, and if he wanted to talk to you he was free to. You have not asked to come over and visit since [son] picked you up - you cannot expect us to 1- read your mind or 2 - drop everything and come pick you up. We have a new baby, and we have our own lives. I also have not said a word to you about what happened during delivery/postpartum, because I have no energy to argue with you. [Son] said you apologized, and I told him I appreciated it (even though it was NOT a real apology. You apologize for what you did to hurt my feelings, not that my feelings were hurt). I don't have time for your drama. For the record, though, what you said was absolutely disgusting. I almost died - it had nothing to do with my mental health. Since you have decided to go for grandparents rights, we will have no direct contact with you. All contact will need to go through our lawyer. You have been removed from my Facebook. You are not permitted to post any pictures you have been sent of my child on social media, and [older granddaughters mom] feels the same way regarding [older granddaughter]. We intend to have something written up by our and sent to you by the end of the week regarding this, and ceasing contact with us. I assume we will be servered with your visitation paperwork this week as well. You will get no pictures or phone calls going forward. In fact, you will be blocked.
I also hope you realize you will absolutely lose this case. Your house is not suitable to live in, and you would have to be able to pass a drug test. When you lose, we will not resume contact with you. You lost your chance at being apart of our kids lives by deciding to go to the most nuclear option instead of just communicating with us."
I tried to respond to her and tell her that I didn't want to go through with it anymore and I reacted pit of anger, but she wouldn't answer texts or calls - so I assume I really am blocked. I called my son to tell him about the text she sent, and he said he knew about it and it was a lot nicer then what he wanted to send me.
So, that's where I'm at at this point. I'm going to show my lawyer the text so that it can show how unwilling to forgive and to work with me she is, and hopefully it will resolve quickly so I can at least get visitation rights with my oldest granddaughter.
Edit to add: I dont appreciate the nasty messages I have received or the barrage of nasty comments. I admit I made a mistake, but now this is my only option. It's clear that most of the responses from reddit are from those of young people not from my generation, as I have gotten different responses in other online support groups from people my own age who are also grandparents, many from my own culture.
Relevant Comments: (I again removed some that were in my OG BORU post)
Ummm the drug test?
"She says that I would have to pass a drug test. I use medical marijuana to help with a chronic illness, but it is still illegal where I live."
"I am quitting entirely since this is a possibility [getting in trouble]."Why tf is your daughter a better mother?"Because they need to have better cultural examples. For instance, the oldest mother is also not from our culture/race, and her hair is very different from her daughters. She has no idea how to take care of her hair! It's always a mess. My daughter in law has taken some initiative in doing and styling her hair, but she's still not great at it. The girls need someone who can teach them how to handle basic things like taking care of their skin and hair. Oldest hair has been something I have encouraged them to let me handle long before daughter in law came into the picture. Not taking care of a child's hair is a form of neglect. My daughter knows how to do those things because her hair and skin are much closer to theirs and she can handle it with her own children."One last gem:
I dont feel I deserve to be treated better, but equal. We are both equally important in my son's life. She is obviously more important in her daughters life right now, but without me that baby wouldn't be here. I would drop the grandparents rights case if I wasn't cut off - I reacted out of anger and desperation, but now it's the only option since I'm cut off."
A few people pointed out there is a post that seems like it is from the daughter's perspective on JUSTNOMIL, but OOP of that post has requested it not be re-shared. It has also been deleted.
However, some highlights include:
- MIL threatens suicide because "they turned the whole family against her and won't let her see her granddaughters." Is placed in psychiatric care for 72 hours and released.
- MIL called CPS and said they were starving and neglecting their infant. CPS had to show up.
- MIL also says OOP is holding her husband hostage and police show up
- Thankfully the police and CPS see there is nothing wrong and all charges are dropped
- OOP states she and husband are going to try to move
******NEW Post: May 22, 2023 (2.5 months from OG Post. New Username)****\*
Title: AITA for removing my son from my will after our relationship ended?
I really don’t think I’m wrong, but I just need reassurance that I’m doing the right thing.
I (F 50s) have a son (David, 30s) who is married to Bea, 20’s. They have a daughter who is 4 months old, and my son has a daughter from a previous relationship who is 10.
Bea & I had a falling out after their baby was born, and my son and granddaughters got caught in the crossfire. The falling out happened in March, and I know I did and said things I wasn’t proud of, and although she hasn’t apologized I’m sure she feels the same way. It would be too long to go over the history, but at the most extreme point I did consult a lawyer for grandparent rights. During this time, my son had no contact with me, but when I dropped the grandparents rights case I asked for things to go back to normal. My son expressed that he wanted things to go back to normal, but that a lot of damage had been done and he really didn’t know if we could go back to normal.
For Mother's Day, my daughter decided to take me out to dinner, and she begged David to go and bring the baby (oldest was with mom). David eventually did agree on the condition it wasn’t on mothers day, and He, the baby, and Bea came. Bea was quiet most of dinner, but did talk to my daughter a few times – I guess they have a pretty good relationship. Bea held the baby the entire time, and wouldn’t let me hold or take pictures (part of the falling out was over pictures and Facebook, so I found this to be petty).
Overall, I would have called dinner a success. At the end I hugged my son and told him I was proud of him for putting his foot down and coming to dinner with his daughter, and that I hoped he could continue to do that. Looking back, I know I shouldn’t have said anything. My son called me later that night and told me that he couldn’t continue to have a relationship with me. He said that Bea was their child's mother, and he wouldn’t ever bring the baby anywhere without her blessing. I was drunk when he called because I have had a hard time coping, and I admit I lost it a little bit on the phone call and told him it was despicable that he couldn’t man up to his wife, and that he should have come to see me on mothers day because I am his mother. He ended up hanging up on me.
I called the next day and profusely apologized to him. I know it was wrong of me to have said what I did, and I told him I want a relationship with him. He told me he couldn’t do this with me anymore.
I have been heartbroken ever since, but I understand I guess. I called him last night and told him that I wouldn’t be contacting him or his wife anymore ever, and that I respected that we wouldn’t have a relationship. I also let him know I would be taking him off as my power of attorney and out of my will so he never had to be bothered with anything from me again. I don’t have much anyways.
He got mad at me and called me a sorry excuse of a mother, and now my daughter is saying I’m manipulative. I really don’t understand how I was wrong in giving him what he wants."
Relevant Comments:
People figure out pretty quickly that she is the same woman as the other posts. The scenarios, ages and the way she often spells would with a "k" as a mistype. That and her overall tone.
You need therapy:
"I have been in therapy to help deal with this trauma. I've been told that I need to respect his boundaries so this feels like I am. Why would i want someone who doesn't care about me making medical decisions for me? He's also expressed I'm a hoarder and I don't have money so I don't know why he would want to be bothered with stuff in a will."
Someone links the DIL's post (again, OOP of that requested that it not be re-shared so I will not be posting it here) and asks if she really threatened to commit suicide if she didn't see the baby:
"No, I said I wanted to kill myself because I felt like I had no one. While I was on a hold for 72 hours and received treatment I got set up with my therapist to help deal with some of the trauma both from what's happening now and past issues."
"I had a psychotic break. This is one of the actions I truly regret."
Update Post to AITA: May 24, 2023
AITA woukdnt let me post an update due my post being "violent" so here we are.
after someone posted a link to what i believe is my daughter-in-laws reddit posts and i read some of the verbal beatings i got i did some more reflection. i feel like her perspective of events really helped shift my view. i do want to point out there are several people who told me i was not wrong and that this younger generation has a poor view of family values. i really believe i was judged so harshly because there are so few parents\grandparents on reddit.
i went to my son and dils house but it was mostly empty. i was afraid of this after reading her post and some of the comments. i found the listing and its been posted for almost a week and is currently pending but i cant find where they moved to and all the photos are of the house mostly empty. i suspect they bought it under an llc so i am currently trying to figure out how to find out the name of the llc and then find the house. i talked to one of their neighbors and they said they moved most of their stuff out around the beginning of may so my son kept this from me for quite a while and didnt even bother to mention it at dinner.
i had a meeting with my therapist to help me through this but im still a wreck. my son has just disappeared. i know everyone here is looking through my small 3000 character limited posts and my dils long gripes about me but my son woukdnt do this on his own. his wife is absolutely manipulative but it doesnt change the fact i handled this all wrong and drove him further away. if i woukd have just sought out a relationship with my son ang granddaughters without b i dont think i woukd be here. i should have just played nice. one commentor said it when they asked me “do you want to be right or do you want to have a relationship with your son and granddaughter?” and i choose wrong.
my therapist told me to give myself some healing time before pursuing anything but for now my plan is to just save some money and hire a private investigator to find my son and then rebuild my relationship and his trust so we can work to get him out from under her.
again i recognize i was wrong in some of this. i recognize i was overly demanding and critical – i was wrong in some of this. but i didnt deserve this. people who use kids and grandkids as pawns are evil.
i will probably continue to seek advice but it certainly wont be from this account. and to whoever linked my other posts from my other account and told my dil about this screw you.
Edit- One more comment from OOP when her post was crossposted to AmITheDevil
"screw everyone here. i am far from being a devil. i am not evil. the person who is evil is the one who took my family completely away from me. my dil has completely manipulated my son. ill admit i was far from perfect but i dont deserve what you people are saying about me. i hope one day you guys feel what it's like to lose your child and grandchild to a manipulative person who just wants to cut their family off."
Edit 2: Thanks to u/adaptablekey for finding this
She also posted this in the 'legaladvice' sub, before she deleted her account. https://old.reddit.com/legaladvice/comments/13qkug9/squatters_rights_in_indiana/
"I am currently in the process of moving and have moved all of my things out of my old house and into my newly purchased home leaving my old home empty until it sells. I had a neighbor that had a squatter issue a few years back and I'm concerned that with my house being empty someone will break in and try to claim squatters rights. Is this possible in Indiana and would it stop the sale of the house?"
Edit- A reminder that it is against the rules of this sub (and reddit) to comment on the Original Posts or dm OOP.
Edit 4- OOP has now deleted her second account.

The OOP is u/VanBabyPony2 - DO NOT HARASS HER
Content Warning: Depression, Emotional Abuse
Mood Spoiler: Things get really bad, but there's a glimmer of hope
Please note that I was not able to include all the posts here because Reddit posts have a character limit of 40,000 and this exceeded that. I considered making a part one/two of this, but decided against it as this story had been posted here before.
So: please read this previous BORU post for the first post and the first five updates.
To give a TL;DR: OOP's mother came out of the closet and moved away with her fiancée. Things spiraled for OOP when she overheard her mother talking about moving on from her old life. Her mother did not visit her in the hospital when she medical issues. At her mother's wedding, OOP was snubbed by her mother. Her mother began forcing OOP to come over for her in-laws, trying to control her university choice and ditched her birthday party.
Update 6 - January 17th 2023:
So, the day after my dad and his fiancee got married (I guess she's also my stepmom now) I had to go to Victoria because my mom wanted me there. My cousin was supposed to come but she changed plans cause her boyfriend got time off work so they went to Whistler instead. When I got to my mom's house, I was there for half an hour and found out my mom and her wife were going to Ottawa for her wife's job so I'd be staying with my step-grandparents until Christmas weekend. I call them step-grandparents here cause it makes sense for some reason but in real life I've started calling them nana and papa. I'll be honest, I had so much fun with them. I really love them both so much. Step-grandpa loves basketball as well and he's also a Lakers fan, step-grandma taught me how to knit (I'm not that good), they made me amazing breakfasts and lunch every day I was there, we would go out for dinner every night and they even live closer to UVic than my mom does, so they said if I go there, they'd turn a room into a study room for me.
The thing was when my mom came back and I went back there, she told me that she found out while in Ottawa that they got a new car for me for Christmas. Mom was kind of angry because she thinks it's too much and I was honestly just scared cause I've never had anything so expensive. But my mom talked it out with my dad and apparently it's all right. So, on Christmas, they brought me the car and it is really cool. I was so nervous to drive it but I do like it. I left it in Victoria because I don't want to drive by myself yet. My mom got me a lot of presents and I mean a lot, there was so much there it felt super overwhelming.
After Christmas, we saw that new Disney movie Strange World because my mom and I both love those kind of movies. In it the main character is a teenager who has issues with his dad and grandpa and he's also gay, but it's just who he is and it's handled like normal in the movie. But as soon as it became clear he was gay, my mom got really quiet and just kind of shut down and just went to her room when the movie was done. She didn't even say good night to me. When I went to brush I could hear her crying really badly to her wife and I know I shouldn't spy but I just had to and she was crying about how it's so normal now and how she wishes she could have come out as a teenager and lived her life the way she should have and how she and her wife could have gotten married way before. I felt really bad and then I heard her talk about how many years she wasted as a soccer mom and I got mad as well and just went to my room.
I was kind of prepared to argue about the movie the next morning but my mom didn't even come out of her room. Her wife said she was feeling sick and when I went to say good morning, she stopped me cause she was like my mom doesn't me to see her like that. I heard my mom throwing up and when I said good morning through the door just to check on her she said it back but then started crying again really loudly and had her wife take me away because she said she can't let me hear her cry. I just stayed watching tv after that because I felt really bad cause it was my idea to watch that movie. Her wife kept going back and forth and tried to get her to eat and apparently she ate some bread but then she threw that up too.
Then my step-grandparents came because they were worried and they went driving with me to distract me. We went to DQ even though it was really cold and it did get my mind off things until step-grandpa answered a call from my mom's wife and and then he was telling her to take my mom to a hospital but I heard her mention how my mom would rather die than go there and how she didn't see her parents in the hospital and didn't even go to see me. When my step-grandparents asked if that was true, I said it was about me and I tried not to but I did cry. They got me to stop and I still feel fucking embarrassed that I cried in front of them but we had a good day together.
When my step-grandparents dropped me off, my mom was on the couch and called me over and then gave me such a big hug but it was like she was holding in tears. She told me that she wasn't feeling good at all and asked if I wouldn't mind going back to my step-grandparents the day after. Her wife said that maybe they should send me back to Vancouver and I could stay with my uncle and my mom just got so angry I actually got really scared and she went on a rant about how she's not going to let me see him and how he's just been trying to turn me against her and he just hates her because she doesn't have aids trauma (that didn't make sense because my uncle doesn't have aids) and he needs to get over himself and remember that my dad is his brother and not son and to focus on his actual granddaughter. Her wife tried to calm her down but then she just yelled out that she wishes that my uncle would just fucking die and it was the worst decision of her life to pity my dad and not just take me with her when she left. I really didn't know that she hated him that much. Like when I was younger, they were always so close and dad would even joke sometimes about her stealing his brother.
I honestly started crying really badly because he is my favourite uncle but that just made mom angrier and she was like to her wife that it's jut proof that nobody understands and that my uncle is trying to steal me cause I'm the best thing in her life. Then she actually yelled at me to fucking stop crying, that I cried more than I did when I was a baby and she said the thing about me not getting a husband again. Her wife just took my mom to their room and they left me on the couch and I don't know I couldn't stop crying and I just fell asleep there cause I didn't feel like I could move.
In the morning, I woke up and I was still on the couch but there was a blanket on me and my head was in my mom's lap and really felt like crying again but I held it in and then my mom actually said sorry. She said she doesn't know what's been happening to her since we saw the movie but it was no excuse to yell at me for crying and she's so sorry that she hurt me so badly and she's starting to understand how horrible she's been to me the entire winter break. She called her wife over and made her apologize to me too. And after breakfast we had a really big talk about how she was feeling and she seemed really sorry and said she would never get mad at me for crying again. But what mattered to me was when she said she was sorry she took all her anger on my uncle out on me and that she was wrong to do that and wrong to let me know how she feels because it would be wrong to make me stop loving him. She said she knows I might not forgive her but even if I do, she'll never forgive herself and she will try to change back to who I need her to be so we can go back to normal. She did offer to let me go to him and I don't know why I didn't say yes but I kind of felt like I still had to stay.
I talked to her wife too and she was really sorry for what happened cause she'd never seen my mom that way before and just wanted to calm things down. She told me she was wrong not to take my side and apparently my mom was mad at her for not doing that and she feels really guilty and she's the one who put the blanket on me and she slept by me until like 4 AM when my mom came and took over. She also said she'd do whatever it took to get my forgiveness and she wishes she never hurt me because I've become such an important part of her life and she's so grateful I love her parents.
For the rest of the break, my mom didn't really talk that much and she did start eating, but it wasn't that much. My step-grandparents came over every day to check on me. Mom did seem to get a little bit better on New Years. Every time I'd ask how she felt though she'd just say she's fine and it's her job to worry about me and not the other way around. I did go home the day after New Years because school was starting but I had to go back on Friday (I got back Sunday night) because I had a meeting at UVic. And mom seemed really different, she seemed smaller somehow and she definitely looked skinnier. I know it's only been two weeks but she seemed skinnier and she still seemed sad but like she was at least pretending to be happy.
The meeting at UVic went really good and it really does seem like an amazing place to go to school and even though I don't know if I want to do engineering anymore, there's still a lot there. My mom did make me sign up to go check out UBC, SFU and Langara as well. She also said that she's going with her wife to Ontario in February and we can do a road trip together while her wife is working and check out univerisites there like Waterloo or McMaster and U of T. She said she wanted me to know I can choose to go to them but she's confident I'll come to her. But aside from the meeting, she didn't leave home at all (I did to hang out with my step-grandparents) and when I was there, she cuddled me almost the entire day unless we were eating and her wife told me she's been working from home. I don't know what to make about any of it like if this means I'm getting my mom back like she used to be or if she's just going to keep on changing or if she's depressed now too. I wasn't planning on posting but I feel like I need people's opinions on what could be happening with her.
Comments:

• OOP comments on her mom being afraid of the hospital here: "Thank you, it meant a lot that my mom apologized to me too. I was surprised that she did and maybe it means more than it seems. I never knew she was afraid of the hospital before because it's not like she's never taken me to the doctor and she obviously had to go when she gave birth to me but it does make sense. "
• OOP comments on her mom's AIDS insult here: "I know for a fact that my uncle doesn't have aids. He helped me when I was in grade eight with a project we did on HIV/AIDS in Malawi about a book called the Heaven Shop and he introduced me to a friend of his from South Africa who has it for an interview part me and my friend put in it. But we didn't learn anything about an AIDS epidemic, only that it's a serious problem in countries like Malawi. My uncle's in his fifties, so maybe that was what she was talking about."
• OOP comments on her parents' ages here: "My mom and dad got married right when high school finished and then they had me not that long after. "

Previous BoRU - Feb 17th, 2023
Update 7 - March 21st, 2023
So, I'm posting here because I've gotten a lot of DMs and I guess I just want to address things. My spring break is almost over, just this week left, so I don't know how much more I'll be on here. I'm not posting this in JUSTNOMIL because my original account has not been restored yet and I figure it's best if I only post on my profile or on mom for a minute and I'm sure that whoever sees this here could give advice. That way I won't break any rules again.
So, first I haven't seen my mom since winter break and I do miss her a lot. It's weird because I don't want to go to her house and my therapist has been helping me deal with it saying this is the time to learn to be myself but I do miss her a lot and I wish I could see her. At the beginning of last month, my mom did start going to therapy herself and I was supposed to go and see her for Valentines but her therapist said she was unstable and made it an unsafe environment for me so I couldn't go. She texts me good morning and good night every day but whenever I've called or FaceTimed she would hang up and I know that because it ends after a ring or she'd text me to not call. I talked to her wife on the phone every week and she said she's been getting better.
My cousin got engaged last week and my mom did call me then. My mom and my cousin are really close and I'm so happy she's getting married so it's a big deal for all of us. And my mom promised me that she'll come over whenever my cousin actually starts planning because she's doesn't want to get married until November. She did start making those jokes again about me and my boyfriend being next but stopped when I asked.
And when she called, my mom told me that therapy has helped her see she had the wrong view on some things, so she said she's sorry for not to taking me with her when she came out and moved. She said that's why I was being resentful and thinking horrible things and if she could do it all over again, she would take me so we could be as close as we were. She said she didn't take me because she still loves my dad and was worried he would be broken without me and she didn't want to uproot my life. She did say it was nice to get a break from being a day to day mom but it hasn't been worth how bad things have gotten between us. She promised me I am the most important thing in her life and when therapy gets her to a place where she can be herself again we will be just like we used to.
I don't know every time I think about that call it's been confusing me because I'm happy that she finally said sorry to me and that it's not my fault and she was wrong to go without me. But at the same time the call just kept making me feel like she's never going to get to where she needs to be even though she's in therapy. I know I'm being ridiculous or worrying too much because I tried to tell her that but she didn't get what I meant.
My step-grandparents did come over for the weekend though. We had a lot of fun together and step-grandpa/papa promised me that he'd get us Lakers tickets if they made it to the playoffs. And not just him and me but my cousin, her fiancée, my dad and his wife too. So I really hope that they do. They did ask me about my mom and told me she's got a really big promotion at work but I guess they knew talking about her was making me sad since they only did it once.
Oh and to people messaging me asking about my uncle and asking if he's the same uncle I mentioned who has a son, yes he is. When my uncle's partner was alive, he got custody of his nephew because his sister died and my uncle and his partner raised him together. So he is my uncle's son and is my cousin and his daughter is my niece. I got 12 people messaging me and like it's probably just one troll but it is very annoying.
If you guys have any advice that I can bring up with my therapist, I would love to hear it.
Previous BoRU - March 29 2023
Update 8 - May 24th 2023
So I guess I'm posting here because I need to vent somewhere because it feels like nobody is listening. I guess the first thing is that other than texting, my mom and I haven't talked at all aside from this last weekend.
The first thing was that my cousin is getting married and she told me that she wants to have kids as soon as she gets married. Because my aunt isn't alive and our real grandparents aren't either, she wants my mom to be her kids' grandma. I don't know why that still made me feel so weird especially because I was there when my cousin phoned my mom and she seemed so happy and excited even though this is like two years away. But my mom has been taking care of my cousin since she was like eleven or twelve and they both mean a lot to each other so I tried to get over it.
And then my step-grandfather got me, my dad, my cousin and her fiance tickets to the Lakers/Warriors game. My step-grandfather couldn't come even though he wanted to because my step-grandmother and my mom's wife got sick and my mom didn't feel she could take care of both of them alone. I still had the best time at the game and saw Lebron and Steph Curry and the Lakers even won but I wish that everyone could have gone.
And then I got into UVic, UBC, SFU, McMaster, Waterloo, Guelph and University of Guelph. I think it's because of my extracurricular projects and clubs because my English grades are still very bad even though I'm doing great in everything else. So my mom phoned me and said she was coming over this last weekend because it was a long weekend and we were going to talk about university and her will and I got nervous but excited because she was actually going to come.
And she came on Friday and said she'd be staying with my cousin but she came to our house first. She really looked a lot different, I mean she looked so much skinnier than before and she had her hair dyed jet black with green streaks in it. And then she was wearing all these fancy and expensive clothes that she never wore before like she was wearing a Versace dress and promised to get me one too. She also got a tattoo on her wrist with my name and showed me it and the design was beautiful but it was so weird seeing her looking so different.
She said she'd leave on Monday and that gave us an entire weekend together. She took me and my boyfriend out for dinner and then we even watched the new Fast and Furious movie and she didn't even make those jokes about us getting married. And I stayed over at my cousin's that night and we did cuddle and get up late and make breakfast together and we had a lot of fun. We spent that day together as well and then had dinner at a really nice place in Burnaby with my cousin and her fiance.
And then on Sunday we finally had the talk. She and my dad and my dad's wife sat me down and first they talked about the will. My mom said she's leaving me most of the things she has with my cousin getting the rest and my dad said pretty much the same. I don't want to go into specifics but they kept talking about it down to the details like my great grandmother's necklaces and what to do when I inherit their houses and life insurance and stuff even though I really didn't want to. It felt so morbid thinking about them being dead and they wouldn't stop, they both said I'm going to university, I'm 17 and I need to know this and it just made my mood so sour.
And then I told my mom the universities that I got into and she was so happy that I got into so many. And then she said that as much as she wants me to come to UVic, she's proud of me either way and would be perfectly fine with me staying and going to UBC. But then I told her that my boyfriend was going to McMaster and I wanted to go so we could be together. Her face got really disappointed then and she said that's not the right reason to choose moving all the way to Hamilton for and she can't support my decision if it's not for myself and my education. She said if I'm serious about going to an east coast university then every other one on my list is just as good.
That started another argument between us because I got really mad and asked what's the problem and she asked if I'm going to study or to support my boyfriend. Then she went on about sex and what if I got pregnant and I yelled at her that she should be happy since it's like she keeps talking about me getting married and having kids. She didn't yell back at me and just said that she was always joking about that and won't make those jokes again. But then I said that she and dad were both eighteen when they got married and then had me and she started talking about how hard that made university for her and how it led her to repress who she was for so long and how she wants me to focus on my future. Then when I said I wanted to have my future with him she said she's going to talk to his mother about this and I should get ready to break up with him if he can't go long distance because it's the best thing for me.
And I started crying because I don't want to break up with him and I didn't want to because as soon as I did I could see her get really, really mad like she wanted to scream at me but all she said was that she's extremely disappointed in me and that she can't be here. She left and she went to my cousin's house and that just made me cry more and I fell asleep hugging my dad.
On Monday, my mom, my dad and my dad's wife met with my boyfriend's mom and we weren't allowed to be there. I don't know what they talked about but they did agree that we shouldn't go to McMaster together even though I know they wouldn't have said that if we both chose UBC. My boyfriend's mad too but he said that he's still going to McMaster no matter what his mom says. Before my mom left she told me she knows I'm mad at her but one day I'll know that she was just looking out for me and to choose any other university on my list and she'll pay for it right away.
It just makes no sense. I really want this and they're all agreeing with her that I shouldn't. I talked to my cousin and she said my mom has a point. I told my uncle and he said that I need to look at it like would my boyfriend go to Guelph for me even though that's not the point. Even my counselor said that my mom was right and that just because we've been having issues and that she's been on the wrong side of things doesn't means she's always wrong. I don't know what else to write I'm just feeling really pissed off.

A year ago if asked what my biggest pet peeves on the JustNo subs were, I'd have said adult children who don't pay rent but think they should have full say in how the household is run, and any kind of wedding drama. But they've been replaced recently.

1. I have noticed a big uptick in MILs who have cognitive issues like dementia being treated like they're JustNos "When they were always so nice before". No shit, they have a disorder that will literally change their personality as it damages their brain. It's an awful thing to witness and often causes people to act in ways that they never, ever would have when they were healthy.
2. People recommending that OPs contact their MILs doctors and therapists. How about mind your own fucking business?

I read a post last night where a woman said that her MIL has a mental illness that causes her to literally have delusions and the comments were just terrible, and really showed how most people simply do not understand that mental illness is different for everyone. What really got me was someone recommending that the OP send MIL's therapist a letter:

If you want to, I would write a letter to her therapist. They are being fed a load of nonsense from her, and giving them the complete picture of what she’s done to her relationships through her conscious choices could help them actually help her in the long run.

Except that MIL is experiencing breaks from reality and delusions. I can guarantee you that her therapist knows this and doesn't need OP popping in to "tell her side of the story".

So over DHs long weekend for Memorial Day (he doesn’t get a lot of time off and he wasn’t about to call his parents) his parents called him. Of course it was my FIL calling but he had MIL (for context if you need)waiting in the wings.
At first DH was irritated and didn’t want to answer. And I said to him “do you just want to get it over with because they’ll call again.” So he answers. Luckily we were on our way to Walmart so he had a time limit and an out.
They try the usual pleasantries. Asked about our son and how I was doing. It gave me the ick because cmon that’s not what they’re calling about.
Then I hear my MIL (the phone isn’t on speaker) say, “no matter how far we are I’ll always love you.” She’s f*cking sobbing. If I rolled my eyes any harder I would’ve crashed the car. (Edit: I felt bad immediately after doing this though. It was an automatic reaction and DH knows how I feel about them and he doesn’t need me having an attitude about his parents)
After he got off the the phone call because we’d arrived at the store we agreed to start therapy this coming weekend.
I have no clue what this woman’s deal is. I’m glad I live thousands of miles away from them.
Oh and bonus content is GMIL told DH that she “needed to talk to him.” It’s about me and my rudeness. I cannot wait to hear about what an ogre I am. He hasn’t called her back. (Edit: mind you this old miss has been sitting on this for probably a month +. Just waiting and stewing in it)
Basically what happened with GMIL is a set a boundary and shut her down because she was being very out of pocket and rude with me about something that wasn’t even about me but about DH. I told her (respectfully) to relay her grievances with her grandson. She was pissed. Told every in law that’s listen and cried to my FIL (for context). I showed DH what she said and he’s in my side fully. My FIL already called DH though about GMILs hurt feelings (pride most likely) so idk what else this woman wants to say.
What’s their goal when they do this crap? Should I encourage my husband not to answer or just let him answer. I told him I’ll leave that up to him. But he doesn’t like when they call. I don’t want to seem like I’m steering him one way or another when I really all I want is to be supportive. But I’m not sure if supportive is saying maybe he should answer so he doesn’t get harassed or saying don’t answer because he doesn’t owe them anything.
But my friends think this is their effort to get us divorced so they have access to our kids. As if I’m the only party that doesn’t want to be around them…
Also if you have any advice for my husband (coming from the other spouses perspective or anything for that matter) drop that comment below too. I show him these posts.
Oh and good lord major. They started talking about a road trip (past our state) around the time I’m due with my baby. DH was tactful about it and said I’m due sometime in that month but we don’t know when. I think after all the negativity they put on our pregnancies they’re thinking about showing up for the birth without telling us.
Here’s the original post I linked but it got taken down for the 24hr rule:
So my mil cried on the phone when my husband announced our second pregnancy. I’m due this fall. She apparently has been telling people she feels like a bad mother when we have kids.
Well all my ILs (MIL, FIL, and GMIL) spoke negatively about my first baby and this pregnancy. MIL had high expectations that I didn’t fulfill for her and her idea of being a gma. FIL asked if both of my pregnancies were on purpose and told DH our baby would just end up a drug addict (we don’t do any drugs, we don’t even drink) and GMIL just said “oh” the first time. Second pregnancy she wasn’t all too excited either.
So flash forward all my ILs are taking a road trip this fall… I can’t believe I forgot about this in my last post. It jogged my memory. They’ll be coming up through our state this fall.. when I’m due
They asked over a phone call when I’m due… and immediately brought up their family road trip and asked DH if he was available. My lord.
I’m not letting them in. I don’t know what they’re cooking up. But it ain’t good

After the incident back in December over the Pepsi (https://www.reddit.com/JUSTNOMIL/comments/10hxjt4/no_mil_your_husbands_drunken_outburst_in_not_my/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button) and my stepson we spent a week or so away from them. Until MIL apologized, this worked for my SO and we came around with little incident. This was until last week. Lately my SO has been going to the bar to spent time with his father and try and bond with him a bit. However last week he walked into the bar and instantly started in with horrible insults things like "you've been a piece of shit since you were two," and "no one likes you because you're a selfish prick," he significant other started to ignore it until he went after his grandpa who practically raised him saying that "he was a piece of shit who never gave him a dime" SO then told him to "Don't ever talk about my grandpa like that" The bartender (who is very close to FIL) threw my SO out to prevent a fight. As if that wasn't bad enough his mom then calls said HE embrassed her and that he should just no better then to try and bond with his dad. They'd been doing this for awhile and it was fine. Once he told her the things he said her response was "you were handful growing up it was hard raising you, your not that great of a dad yourself" All kids are handfuls sometimes, he was probably more of a handful because of the way his father treated in and talked to him. No one is the perfect parent, every father makes mistakes, but he tries to be the best dad he possibly can to his son much more then his dad did with him. Then to top it off FIL comes home takes the phone from MIL and starts in again telling him "he's just to stupid to take care of himself" then started (I shit you not) acting like he was having a heart attack by panting and saying his chest hurt. By the time SO hung up and called me to tell me what was going on he was balling his eyes out. I suggest to him give him what he wants and just not speak to them or go over there for awhile however due to the force my MIL has over my SO the moment she calls he answers to make sure she's ok. I get it, it is his mother. The harder part is going to be when my stepson comes as he is very close to his Nana and becomes upset when he doesn't see her, after the last incident he was upset because he thought he had done wrong by upsetting grandpa and wanted to see his nana. This is not easy but I'm not sure how to help them.

I am NOT OP. Original post by u/Tiny_lil_bizzle in JustNoMIL
trigger warnings: none
mood spoilers: OOP takes the best action in a very frustrating situation?

Advice from veteran JNMIL - April 28, 2023
I have been mulling over the fact that my SO's mother might be a no boundary having, narcissistic, controlling wench. Shes not my MIL technically, so we can call her wench.
I'll preface with I have never been so in love and felt so secure with any man in my life. My son adores him. They are actually grabbing snacks and icecream for friday movie night at the moment. Hes my ideal match... as long as it doesnt have anything to do with his mother.
We've been together for over 1.5 yrs, we have decided that he should move in. Problem being that he and his mother not only live together, they own a house together 🤦🏼‍♀️ both are on the mortgage. She cannot afford to live there alone and is refusing to find another living arrangement so that they can either rent the property out or sell it. This means he will have to pay about 1k a month so she can live in their house. He would not be able to contribute to our household. The last time they spoke about it, it turned into her yelling at him, he wont even repeat what she said but it upset him a lot.
She has complete control over him with no boundaries, buys him things (including underwear , clothes, toiletries and food), cleans his room and bathroom, even though he has told her not to. He is 34 yrs old.
My SO has a brother who has children, wench got in a huge argument with his brothers SO, so much that she ran her off and they no longer live together. My SO and his brother both seem to have a huge issue with standing up to wench.
There are plenty of other incidents involving her being directly rude to me/over stepping her boundaries with me... but I dont want to make this post too long. I just try to make our interactions short and sweet.
Ive read up on "When Hes Married to Mom" and "Silently Seduced." They've painted a bleak picture of what is in store if we continue our relationship. We have had talks about it and it is a very touchy subject. He takes it as Im trash talking his mother and calling him dependent on her. I believe he is starting to realize how unhealthy their "protective" and "overly caring" dynamic is... I just feel like this is going to be a long process, we've been arguing for a few months and its getting hard...
I guess Im just looking for people who have dealt with this long term and have either advice, experience, is this worth it and is it possible that this will ever get better?

UPDATE: Asked for JNMIL advice - May 19, 2023
Original post here:
https://www.reddit.com/JUSTNOMIL/comments/132latd/advice_from_veteran_jnmil/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button
(tl;dr of Original post: thinking of moving in with bf of 1.5 yrs, his mother is not having it and has more control over him than I think he has of himself)
Update:
So after mulling over advice recieved from this community as well as 2 of my very good friends... I'm taking a huge step back from this whole relationship.
I sat him down and had a serious conversation where I finally got through to him, at least a little. Gave him "When He's Married to Mom" by Ken Adams. I told he needs to read it and take a good look at himself. After reading 2 chapters he sat down with me and cried. He really hadnt realized how his controlling but "doting" mother has affected him.
He said he made a plan to confront his mother again and ask her to sign a legal contract to rid them both of being financially obligated to the house. Of course she refused and told him that while she wont sign the paper, she will "eventually be able to be more financially independent, and when that happens, they can either sell the house together or she can take it over." It upset me to know that agian, he doormatted himself. She is so selfish, I could not even fathom of ever A) being financially dependent on my own son and B) being so selfish as to not want him to be in a happy healthy relationship. He often tells me he's the most happy hes ever been when we're together. What an egocentric POS mother. Serious YUCK vibes all around.
Yesterday we got into another argument about how I feel like I'm always going to be in 2nd place. It made me realize that he honestly IS NOT READY for this relationship. He played the part REALLY well. Amazing with my son, family, and friends, caring for me mentally (I have my own family/depression/anxiety issues) and just being generally good to me. But the relationship with his mom is preventing him from truly being a 50/50 partner with me.
I didnt talk to him all day, he finally called me in the evening and I had the the talk with him. He gave me the "i dont want to give up on us" spiel. I do feel empathy for his heartbreak but facts are facts and I cant ignore them. This is none of my sons fault, so he can still keep in contact with him. They both have each others ph#s so I wont have to have much, if any, contact with him.
Honestly I feel SSOOOO.... relieved. Surprisingly I am taking this better than I thought I would. It might be just letting go mentally of a situation I was stuck in. Im sure I will still get lonely and miss him at certain points. Maybe have a realization in a couple days and ugly cry for a bit but my friends are excellent support systems. If anything, this will maybe give him a little reality check. I do hope that he finds someone in the future, or at least is aware of how he needs to behave as not not hurt another woman or her potential kid(s).
So... TL;DR: you win, you selfish wench. At the cost of your sons happiness. Congratulate yourself, because I know you will.


Reminder - I am not the original poster.

Over_Chocolate_3826 has been posting on JustNoMIL for months now and the only advice that literally anyone can give her is to MOVE THE FUCK OUT, so now she's still posting but flairs it as "No Advice Wanted" so that all anyone can do is enable her. I think she might be one of the most infuriating people on the sub.
For those who aren't familiar with her, she lives with her BOYFRIEND in his house with his mother, who is a different ethnicity and doesn't speak the same language. MIL may have cognitive issues and as such, she's not very sanitary. OP is not trying to help her boyfriend's mother, but to get her shipped off to another country away from her only child. Her BF doesn't want to do that. OP is big mad about it and has cameras set up in pretty much every room so she can catch BF's mom "being gross" and use it to try to get her kicked out. (She says they're for her dogs, but I have doubts because every post is about her watching her MIL on the cameras) OP doesn't have a drop of empathy or kindness in her body for anybody, but especially not the elderly.
For the record, I'm also pretty appalled that her BF hasn't gotten a caretaker for his mother, she clearly needs one.

This was on justnoMIL but I can't figure out a way to get an external link so I will simply copy and paste the text to avoid linking to a specific sub.
To me, this just feels, ... stupid. Also ridiculous.

JUSTNOMIL got a pool for my 18 month old, who can’t swim yet. Without permission.
📷Anyone Else?
So as the title suggests, my MIL, has taken it upon herself to buy an above ground pool for my 18 month old daughter, who cannot swim. My fiancé and I are in agreement, for once, that she should have asked first if it was okay to do so as we have no plans as of right now of getting our child into swimming lessons. My fiancé is a certified life guard and is trained in CPR and water safety, but we don’t feel comfortable with the idea of our child being in water that deep when she doesn’t know what to do. I guess she also got my daughter a life vest to wear but it doesn’t fit right.
We don’t know how to enforce this with her as she is constantly boundary stomping and acting like she knows what’s best. In this instance I think it was because we used to live in an apartment complex that had a swimming pool.

The user who is posting about this is "tirzys" and they have posted both on JustNoMil and trueoffmychest. I'll copy and paste the post too, but this rare link seems to be working today.

I want to start off by saying I am so thankful for my husband as he has been absolutely wonderful throughout this entire situation.
Now on to the drama: My MIL and FIL were abusive to their kids when they were young. FIL was a drunk and MIL was super young (18) when they started having kids. They have both hit them, screamed at them, threatened them with knives, and emotionally and spiritually abused them in many ways over the years. Thankfully FIL has changed a ton and is no longer a drunk or abusive and has genuinely apologized for his actions in my husbands and his siblings childhood. MIL has also apologized and we felt progress had been made. MIL was still a bit demanding, overbearing, and manipulative at times but we still felt that things had changed and that all was well with them now. Unfortunately we were wrong.
We had been allowing my MIL and SIL (15) to babysit our child (2) once a week as MIL now runs an in home daycare for some local kids. Thankfully our daughter wasn’t present at the time, but MIL got into an argument with SIL and physically attacked SIL, while there were daycare children in the house. The toddlers were apparently napping at the time. SIL told me right away and I nearly went to go pick her up, but my husband ended up going there by himself and having a long talk with his mom and then brought SIL to our house for the evening.
Obviously, to protect our child we will not allow MIL to babysit her any longer as we do not believe that it’s safe.
Now we are in a childcare dilemma and are scrambling a bit to find childcare. I would love it if SIL would be able to come to our house alone to watch our child, but MIL has blocked that from being a possibility.
We also attempted to have a long talk with her and asked to see a therapist or counselor but she has so far refused. We are doing what we can for SIL to help her and protect her as much as we can, but we also feel responsible for the other children that MIL is still currently looking after each week. We aren’t sure what our next steps should be, we have a plan to confront her again in a few weeks and ask her to step down from childcare and seek help for herself, but we know that will cause her to spiral. It’s so emotionally exhausting and difficult to deal with, wish us luck for round 2. ✌️

FUCKING REPORT HER, IDIOT. Like, there is no other option here. As an aside, I hate all of her commenting history.

So, I posted here for the first time about a week ago about my elderly MIL moving in. Here is that thread for anyone who is curious. Long story short, she's well meaning and gentle, but.... Jesus Christ, she's 100x worse than I ever thought. I genuinely cannot tell if she's losing her mind or if she's genuinely just the weirdest kind of selfish I've ever encountered.
Not to mention, I gave birth to a preemie two weeks ago, shortly after my last post. Was traumatic in more ways than one. I also had some nasty PP complications that I don't wanna get into, but I was mostly incapacitated by pain for the first week or so and still have not totally solved the issue. Looking at possible surgery today. Not to mention the hormones, painful pumping every 2 hours 24/7, and a serious lack of sleep.
I tried so, so hard to welcome her to the house. She stood around like a statue, refusing to even try to integrate, so I had to entertain her by taking her to the grocery store on a daily basis. Well, I can't do that anymore, so she just literally sits in place and stares. The only other thing she wants to do is our chores, but she has no interest in learning how we like them done. In fact, I think that she is genuinely willing to cause more work for us, just so that she can do it all HER way, just to cure her boredom. She doesn't give a flying fuck if it's actually helpful or not.
A few examples:

1. We use a dishwasher. She has never had a dishwasher. We showed her how to use it and told her that we like to use it for small films of grease/sanitization. So, the other day, I used a small pan and put it in the sink (we let her do the dishes because chores seem to be the only thing she wants to do, she gets silently upset when we do them and only bitches about it to DH when I'm not around). An hour or two later, after seeing her try to use a scraper to remove a stain that only really comes off with a sponge and suggesting she switch tools, I found it in the drawer looking filthy. Reminder, my MIL is basically completely blind due to serious cataracts (we are waiting for the ophthalmologist appt), so she doesn't even realize that she's putting filthy dishes away with the clean ones. I saw it and said "Huh, how did that get there so fast? There's no way that made it through the dishwasher yet!" Chipper tone, non accusatory. I put it in the dishwasher and she didn't say a thing. Well, not until she was alone with DH, where she ranted about how, back in CUBA, she never used a dishwasher! I'm so unreasonable, she NEEDED that pan! Never mind that there were 3 other clean pans ready to be used and their size difference had no bearing on what she wanted to cook. No, she wanted THAT one, and for no actual logical reason.
   
2. I showed her how we fold clothes and explained to her why I like to do them that way... many, many times now. Every time with a smile and a casual attitude. I also told her that I would like to put them all away because I noticed that, when she does it, she jumbles up the drawers and she doesn't actually know what goes where. She put my clothes in with my son's, put pajamas on him for school, etc. I told her that she would get it eventually but, for now, she should let me sort and show her whose is whose. Well, guess what! She smiles at me and says "okay!", then turns around and literally continues to do the same thing. Literally. Right in front of me. I'm beginning to completely boil when I see that she's touched our laundry. MIND YOU, this is MY AND MY SON'S laundry, not hers. She would be furious if I touched her clothes but she feels entitled to touching ours! Even after being asked not to!
   
3. My older son (8) is also on the spectrum. One thing that we have worked very hard on with him is in encouraging him to be independent. He's the sort of kid who is VERY capable but will never learn to do a certain thing for himself if it's always done for him. We are very strict in that he must do things like dress himself, feed himself, wipe himself, brush his own teeth, etc. He's good at all of those things and, when he does need help, we help by coaching beside him instead of doing it for him. He is past the point of hand-over-hand support. We have explained this to MIL multiple times. What is her reaction? To keep doing literally everything for him and to TELL HIM NOT TO TELL US. I think she silently thinks I'm some kind of evil dictator for making my son live his life and grow instead of coddling him like a baby.
   

She is wiping him. She is dressing him. She is picking out his clothes and even started pulling his pajamas off while he was still sleeping the other morning, to which he yelled at her to stop. She washes his hands and face. She lets him ignore her when she talks to him and refuses to have him say please or thank you despite me constantly, politely reminding her. I even caught her fucking SPOON FEEDING him. He's started regressing noticeably. But. She. Won't. Stop.
Every time I witness these things and explain why it's bad for him, she awkwardly nods and says okay. Then she LITERALLY starts doing it again seconds later.
Why? THIS IS HOW SHE IS CUTTING HER BOREDOM. BY UNDERMINING EVERY ASPECT OF MY LIFE SO THAT SHE CAN DO IT HER WAY, EVEN THOUGH HER WAY MAKES NO SENSE AT ALL. I CANNOT.
Not to mention, she makes REALLY LOUD, HORRIBLE teeth sucking noises ALL THE TIME. I literally thought that she was eating a bag of chips with her mouth open the other day and, when I looked, she didn't have any food! She's totally deaf (also in the works of getting her an appointment for that) so she probably doesn't hear it at all or something?
That's all on top of what I ranted about two weeks ago: she's told me the same goddamn stories about her life multiple times a day, and doesn't GAFF about any stories WE try to tell, or the present. Do you think it'll rain? It looks like rain outside. Oh, you're talking about the baby? Let me tell you the same story about when DH was a baby and cut you off to do so! Did I tell you the story about when DH was a baby? Would you like me to show you the photo of the lady who did my c-section for the fourth time? How about his old pediatrician for the tenth? Oh, you're talking about your labor that just happened days ago? I'm bored of this conversation, let me tell you about my c section again! Do you think it'll rain? I like my tuna with olive oil SHHHHHHHHLLLK and my frosted flakes with coffee! Did I tell you about my c section? Here's a photo of the surgeon!
Every little thing was this way. Today, my son finally surpassed his birth weight, which was a huge deal. Her response? "I can't engender what DH's weight was. I think it was 7lbs? Or 7lbs 6oz? Or 7lbs 4oz? I'll have to check the baby book. Maybe 7lbs. Or maybe 8? No, probably 7. He went to the same pediatrician for his while childhood, you know!" Then goes on a trademark old person rant about what she's doing today and the last time she saw her and blah blah blah, who cares about the actual baby we have RIGHT NOW.
Now...... this is all annoying enough. But now it's gotten much worse. Let me tell you a sad, sad story.
Her sister is even older and paralyzed. She owns half of an asset that she cannot sell because the other half owner is trying to claim her half as their own. As her POA, DH is representing her in court on his own dime to try and get that asset sold so that she can afford her own elder care, and the other party WILL NOT SETTLE because they're hopingwe run out of money to fight them/want to claim that we only have POA out of duress if she so happens to die and become unable to testify. Because of that asset, she does not qualify for medicaid, and we have been paying 5 figures MONTHLY (somehow, I have no idea how tbh, I know we are taking on serious debt) ON TOP of legal fees to keep her taken care of. Because this is literally destroying us financially, we decided to bring her sister into our home as well in the coming months to mitigate the costs. We planned on hiring part time nursing care and taking care of the remnant ourselves, and MIL was instrumental in being a translator between me and the aunt, because i do not speak Spanish. For the amount of money and for how docile her sister is, we thought we basically had no choice, and I'm very willing.
WELL. Apparently it's traumatizing to be told not to wipe our son's ass for him when he doesn't even want her to do it and to fold her own laundry. We are very nice about it, no matter how frustrated I get here on reddit. I've always thought that she was well meaning, not malicious, so I'm careful to be nice to her at all times no matter how tired I am or how much pain I'm dealing with. Today, I'm dying. I'm so tired with my newborn. My tits hurt from constant pumping. My head and back hurt. I might need surgery TODAY to deal with my birth complications, which hurt unbelievably. I'm hormonal. I was STILL nice to her despite all this, but the tiniest bit shorter in my responses to her. Less forcefully enthusiastic. I'm just tired. I have never once said anything even remotely rude to her. I'm not a royal pushover, but I consider myself very reasonable and even a little excessively polite.
She went and cried in her room. Told DH that she feels like she's walking on eggshells around me. Like I'm micromanaging her for wanting to fold MY OWN laundry and not letting her treat my son like an infant. She is SO upset and SO unwilling to make the absolute smallest concessions like letting me do my own laundry that... get this... she is no longer on board with her sister moving in. She wants a place with her sister elsewhere, and with a full time nurse that costs the same if not more than the nursing home.
That's right. She wants us to foot the goddamn bill of the lawsuit AND the nursing home... because she refuses to live here and let my son use a spoon himself. Not only that, but she wants her OWN apartment! Of course, DH has to pay for it! To her, he just has unlimited money. Who cares if we go completely broke with a new baby and DH lose his job? SHE doesn't like dishwashers! So, instead of saving five figures a month, she wants us to SPEND ANOTHER 4 FIGURES A MONTH. SO SHE CAN STARE AT HER OWN WALL, AWAY FROM ME WHO BULLIES HER BY ASKING HER POLITELY AND WITH A SMILE TO NOT FOLD MY UNDIES.
I feel so awkward. I feel so stifled. I feel so insulted. I have bent over backwards so much that I'm doing multiple backflips, but she is SO self centered that she won't give me an INCH. She is literally willing to ruin our family unit financially for her own slight, illogical comfort.
DH says he can't take it anymore. I tell him how upset I am hearing SSSSHHHHHHHHCK every ten seconds so loudly that it startles me and she tells him how I'm SO DEMANDING for not letting her bulldoze our way of life. He called today to cancel the hospital bed and.... I just can't help but cry. I can't help but feel like she is not actually this wonderful woman I thought she was if she's willing to sink us like this before she's willing to let go of my laundry. I can't help but feel that, if I was in her shoes, I would be eager to adapt and help my family. But no. She would rather ruin her son's life than adapt even the tiniest bit.
I think I hate her now. If this plan doesn't work out, I will absolutely fucking hate her. How DARE she ruin our plan to Dave our own skins over such petty bullshit. I think she's losing her mind. This HAS to be cognitive decline. But she also expects to hold my 5lb preemie while blind and deaf. She can't even lift our Cavalier without him yelping because she can't hold him right. She doesn't even hear him yelp.
..... ugh.
Rant over. I hate my MIL and I am questioning how "well-meaning" she really is.
OH AND JUST BEFORE I PRESSED POST, she pointed out how I look "just like" this girl on the TV.... who is morbidly obese and has no other similar features to me. I gained weight with my pregnancy despite always being a diet freak and I've been begging her to stop sabotaging my PP diet by constantly buying chocolate bars and offering them to me. I'm not even close to being that large, yet apparently I look just like her. Also, the girl was crying about how she was "too ugly to love", having just been rejected on television. I really do think that the bitch is just passive aggressive at this point.

In thinking back over my life and reading other people's stories here on reddit I've noticed that there seems to be a trend in nparents as their children start reaching adulthood.
Nparents are already controlling, manipulative, and needy to us as kids. They also tend to be neglectful too. But through my own personal experience and stories I've read here, on estrangedadultchildren, and on justnomil I've noticed that much of the neglect part goes away and is replaced with even more controlling behavior. Instead of being left to your own devices when they don't want you right then they instead want to know what you are doing 24/7.
My nmom started talking about how I would need to find a job so I could start paying her for my needs. She started really hammering in how inept I was at everything and how there was no way I could make it out on my own. She started telling me how nice she was for letting me stay instead of kicking me out at 18 like other parents do. She made all appointments and handled all paperwork because she said I wasn't able to do it.
It took me till recently to realize what she was doing and more importantly, why. She was scared. Scared to lose her favorite (verbal) punching bag. Scared to lose the therapist who had to sit and listen to her problems without offering a solution or risk being yelled at. Scared to lose her free cleaning lady that tried to follow her crazy rules (just vacuum around the clutter). Scared to lose her animal caretaker. So she upped the abuse desperately trying to create dependency. Trying to convince me that I couldn't do anything without her support. That I would always need her or my dad to help me either directly, financially, or through their influence on others.
If I hadn't had a good friend and a loving boyfriend both of whom's parents and grandparents went above and beyond to help me I could easily see myself or another put in a similar position fall into the pit the nparent had meticulously dug.
So to any of you young teens out there reading this look out for these signs. They are desperately trying to clip your wings because they see you starting to be able to fly. But I tell you for every flight feather they clip a new one instantly groes back. They are just hoping you never see it. So keep your eyes open. Be aware of your rights and abilities as you approach adulthood and be ready to exercise those rights. You have a right to your property including money. They do not. Do not fall for their manipulation and guilt trips.

This is an update to the post I made back in October. We both use mostly throwaways for these issues, and we do not give any permission for people to share our story outside of the these forums. Please do not make a video or anything, we’ve seen and heard a bunch of those and we don't want this to potentially get back to our family. I'm still struggling with my emotions about this, I never really thought my mother would be this heartless, so please be respectful, I'm not really talking to them much at all, and this has been difficult for both of us.
Too long didn't read: we confronted my mother about respect, my sister cut me out of her life, my wife is now NC with my family, and I'm VLC with my family, and things have never been better between my wife and I!
My original post is here: https://www.reddit.com/motherinlawsfromhell/comments/y9uqkk/confronting\_mil\_about\_respect/?utm\_source=share&utm\_medium=android\_app&utm\_name=androidcss&utm\_term=1&utm\_content=share\_button
https://www.reddit.com/JUSTNOMIL/comments/y9y36f/cw\_confronting\_mother\_about\_respect/?utm\_source=share&utm\_medium=android\_app&utm\_name=androidcss&utm\_term=1&utm\_content=share\_button
And the follow-up post by my wife (crimsongoldsky) made here:
https://www.reddit.com/motherinlawsfromhell/comments/zci177/re\_confronting\_mil\_about\_respect/?utm\_source=share&utm\_medium=android\_app&utm\_name=androidcss&utm\_term=1&utm\_content=share\_button
https://www.reddit.com/JUSTNOMIL/comments/zci4on/re\_confronting\_mil\_about\_respect/?utm\_source=share&utm\_medium=android\_app&utm\_name=androidcss&utm\_term=1&utm\_content=share\_button
Picking up were we left off:
My mother kept sending gifts without asking, then we asked her to stop. She didn't. I also tried to talk with my mother about her non- response to the main confrontation that happened in late Oct 2022, which my wife discussed in her post. My mother kept pretending nothing was wrong. I had talked for 10 minutes, and 5 minutes each between October and January and she hadn’t addressed anything yet. A week before my 8th wedding anniversary (January), I texted my mother after she had tried to call (and then emailed my wife a one sentence line about the accountant retiring). I texted her and said "Hey its been a while since we have really talked. Was wondering where we stand?" She did not respond to the text.
The night of my 8th wedding anniversary (January) she bought $250 concert tickets to a type of music we dont like, and she emailed them to my wife the next morning. We had a schedule conflict for the date of the concert (a few days later), and the musician didn't allow you to sell the tickets again. She had texted on our anniversary to both of us "happy anniversary!" (We didn’t respond) But she never checked schedule, and I was pissed that she was continuing to send gifts and ignoring the real conversation (we couldn’t even find anyone to give the tickets too). I know I possibly should have just ignored it, but the current mostly peaceful time wouldn't have come about if I hadn’t.
I texted her the evening of the day after our anniversary, "Have not heard from you other than to tell us (accountant) has sold his business, then out of the blue buying tickets to a music person we have never heard of is not cool. We have plans for (concert date) and hope you can get your money back. You need to ask before buying something like a pressure washer or tickets to something, we may already have it or have plans. The gifts without communication needs to stop. Sending random items with no questions asked, scheduled checked, ect. Seems like a love bombing tactic we have read about in the boundaries book we have been reading. People mature, grow, and change throughout life. (Wife) and I have been doing that. Respect is still lacking. We plan to move on without you in our lives until the time that you actually want to work on a relationship. If that never happens, then we hope you have a good life."
In the 30 minutes between my text and her responses, she apparently was telling my sister what I had texted her.
The kicker though, and the straw that broke the camels back, Was about 10 minutes after I sent my text about how this wasn't ok, (20 minutes before my mom responded) my sister, who has never really tried to have a relationship with me, let alone my wife (I don't think she even spoke to my wife or really responded for the entire relationship... though we have been in the same room a bunch.) called me. My sister didn't let me get a word in really, and yelled/cried at me. That I was disrespecting our mother, that are request for space is unwarranted (a request for space from my parents is something my mom keeps spreading, but is completely untrue. We didn’t request space we requested respect) I had made our mother cry, it was all apparently my wife's fault... (never once can they even consider that I myself made the choice), I owe my parents everything in my life because they acted kind of like parents, I shouldn’t be letting (my wife) lead me down this disrespectful road, and how (my sister) was hoping to get married this year and she now couldn't have me in her wedding (she isn't engaged even)(she had ignored my wife and refused to even respond to my wife asking her multiple times to be a bridesmaid at our wedding, I have planned to not be a groomsmen in my sister’s wedding since then...), that I had crossed a huge line, I was an asshole, and that she has seen every message and email my wife has ever sent her or my mom (unsure if true) and basically that I was not a part her life for now until the (implied by her) divorce...
I am not a confrontational person, but this made my blood boil. My sister has always been a hot head. But I was so angry it was hard to believe. My sister kept talking over me also, just like my mother and my sister keep claiming my wife does. They still wouldn’t listen to me. I was trying to tell her how it really was and how disrespectful her calling me was, and I am not sure she heard much. Basically all I got in is that what (my sister) has probably heard is not even close to the full story, she should apparently read the boundaries book also, and she hadn't been any nicer than my mom to my wife or I, and that if that's how she really felt then fine, a huge line was crossed, but not by me. My sister said I will regret this decision, and she will make sure of it, and then my sister hung up on me.
My mother later texted again, 10 minutes after my sister hung up.
My mother's response in a few texts was (these are directly copied from the text app), "The gift was nothing like that. I just thought you might enjoy it. I used to be able to give you anything I wanted to give you. That's what gifts are... whether it's money for vehicles, education, or tickets to a concert, it's a gift." (Text 2) "no I can't get my money back. Please share with someone who may need a little Jesus time!!! He is a great guy!!!" (Text 3) "just saw your message from (day before wedding anniversary). We are doing great!!!!" (Ignored the actual question of where do we stand, and the statement of her ignoring the real issue...) (Text 4) "I'm going to see (artist) in (a coastal city) tomorrow with some friends and I am so excited!!!!! Just wanted you to experience it!!!!"
I did not respond to any of these texts from my mother, and she did not in any way let on that she is spreading rumors and half-truths behind our backs... we did not respond for days.
My wife and I took those days to write everything out. If you would like a redacted (for our privacy and anonymousness) version of what we sent, we might can provide a message. We wrote out together a multiple page email to my mother. Noting all the times she or my sister has disrespected us (she has asked for examples in the past), a link to a mother and son healthy relationship guide, the book Boundaries we had read, a huge part about how my wife does not control me like they claim, how they hurt us both, and how I was absolutely not OK with my mother and sister talking behind our backs and my sister calling me that way. We said if there was any misunderstanding of what I had texted that day, my mother should have contacted me but she didn’t, and that "Its concerning that (my mother) has this much trouble being truthful with us."
We continued by saying she still hadn't discussed anything directly with us. We mentioned we are frustrated that they are continuing to ignore it. My wife wrote out a big part of it, listing how she/we know they don't like her, including that they passed judgement and decided to ignore her and judge her before they even met her.
She wrote it out very elegantly and said she is willing to forgive and move on in a positive relationship if they choose to, but the choice is there's, and she absolutely will bit have a problem without them in her life if that is their choice.
We then stated some boundaries.
First, if we have kids, we both get the right to veto and set boundaries regarding the other's family. As in if one of us doesn't feel like someone gets to meet the kids, or babysit, or whatever, we will discuss it, but we will mostly follow it. Aka we have veto power over the others family/friends when it comes to our kids, until at least our future kids are old enough to decide for themselves. We said that for a relationship with our future kids, my family will NEED to at the very least respect my wife as my wife, the mother, a human, and as part of the family. We would also have to be able to believe that they will treat our kids fairly, and get to a point where we can trust that they aren't speaking badly about us etc. We also stated that currently they have shown (and continue to show) the complete opposite... and unless serious changes are made, we doubt it will happen. My wife has already vetoed any relationship between our future kids and them until they can treat us both with respect.
Second, my wife stated that since they have been so awful about this, no current changed behavior, and currently are blaming her for everything, she has chosen to remove herself from the situation. I am allowed to have whatever relationship I want that doesnt involve her or our future kids, but she doesnt see a point in continuing to try for a relationship with them when they have treated her so badly. She asked for an apology and/or significant changed behavior (with a caveat that it will still be frosty if they refuse to apologize, but a relationship can move forward without one). She stated that she has blocked them all on social media (she did, and frankly she is the only one who ever posts on Facebook etc. So they never see anything but my profile picture now, cause I don't care to share with them, and she always posts and tags me. I'm not big into computers and only decided to log into reddit because I wanted to stay strong for mothers day, and I re-read some of the comments on my post). She also stated that until there is significant changed behavior (my mother doesn't know it means literally just calling her a few times to try to just have a normal conversation, or something with actual care, consistently for 6 months, but still its something we both thought my mother will not do. My wife has been extremely correct on this. She will still not let them have a big role in our future kids life without an apology.) Or an apology, she won't talk to them, respond to them, remind me to call them (and I normally didn't call without reminders from her), or visit with them, all emails from them are routed straight into a separate inbox we dont really check. I never will visit without her, so they have currently lost all visit privileges.
My wife also stated that this will also including any discussion and disclosures if she becomes pregnant. We will not mention a pregnancy to them, or anything about a pregnancy to them, until the apology and significant changed behavior. She did state that she might reconsider after a child is born, about if they are *told* about a child. (We are not expecting yet btw). Currently that means that if they find out about a pregnancy, and their first grandchild, it will be when we post an announcement on Facebook at 3 months, if we even decide to do that [and from a third party, we have discovered that someone not blocked (only a few possibilities) is being a flying monkey and feeding information. We have not determined who yet, but we are working on it.]
Lastly we stated that whatever path forward they choose is THEIR choice, and we can move forward if they so choose.
My mother never responded. She has acknowledged that she has read it. The email was sent on January 29.
My wife for her part, has held firm on her boundaries.
And while we are still hurt by my families’ actions, every day that goes by we grow stronger together. We are currently trying for children, and have been attending counseling together. Since the email was sent, I have talked to my father twice, he has not brought up anything about it, but just alludes to "checking up on me" and wanting to talk about his work... I am suspicious, and don’t say much. I'm still keeping him at arm’s length. My wife has listened in to all 5 my phone calls since Jan with my family. I asked her too. My wife has been OK with me talking to them every once in a while, as long as I mostly gray rock, and not let them get any real info. I don't really enjoy talking to them at all any more, but it's been hard trying deal with the emotions.
My mother has been more distant than ever. She has called a few times since the email, I spoke to her the first time about 2 weeks after the email, it was a 5 min phone call. She just asked how I was. Nothing about the issues. I was sad and annoyed. The second time, at the end of March, she tried to do the same, but I turned the discussion to the issues and she said she didn't think responding to the email would help. She also stated that she had asked my sister about the phone call (ignoring my question of why she was communicating with my sister instead of us), and said that my sister had reported that (my sister) had said "nothing that wasn't true." My mother doubted my sister had said what she said, and then further tried to flip the script completely on me, trying to guilt me into coming back and twisting the entire sets of conversations back on me. [My mother does not know that we have legally recorded (we both live in one party recording states) recordings of all the phone calls except the surprise one from my sister, and transcripts, so I know she thinks I've forgotten what I said in October and wanted me to remember something that wasn’t true to make me feel guilty] it didnt work.
Quote from my mother in the March phone call.
"I just try to stay out of yalls hair, always have. I didnt know that we visited too often (never ever said, in fact opposite has been said repeatedly in the past 2 years), I figured yall lived up there for years. And weve only come up 3 times. I didnt think that was too often, maybe yall thought it was." I refuted it, saying, that we never said that and asked if she had been talking to my sister about us, and mentioned that my sister had called and yelled at me. My mother, "I knew from the email that she had called you. I asked her what she had said and she said she didnt say anything that wasnt true. That was all she said." (Evaded the question, said with a smug tone of voice) I told my mother basically what my sister had said and my mother doubted my sister had said it, and mentioned that she would have to talk to my sister about my sister throwing me out of her life. I was still a bit flabbergasted by my mother being completely unfazed and lying about things and said we were trying to get to a better relationship where my wife is welcomed. My mother, "well im sorry (my wife) does not feel welcome. I know I try to do what I can to make (my wife) feel welcome. I do what (my maternal grandmother) would have done. I try to cook the things she likes. I try to, I guess thats the best I know how to do." Thats an exact quote. I was stunned. My maternal grandmother liked my wife. Complimented her earnestly, asked her questions earnestly, and defended my wife against a different family member. Also, my wife doesn't like the food my mom makes.
I tried to refute it, and mentioned we should maybe talk all of this out with a 3rd party mediator, but my mother conveniently was getting caught in a hail storm (We verified via weather channel) and had to get off the phone. I realized through that guilt trippy phone call that she completely twisted everything in the email and in previous texts and calls to try to make me feel bad and talk to her more. These realizations have helped me work through my emotions about all of this.
In late March/April, my wife's mother had medical issues and was hospitalized and had 2 emergency surgeries. My wife put on Facebook asking for prayers. This is how we found out there are flying monkeys on Facebook. Suddenly my mother had called 2 times, my dad 2 times, and my grandmother once (I answered my grandmother, I didn't give her any real info, and she said she is sorry my mother is being this way, but she loves us both and is praying for us. My normally evil grandmother is being nicer to us then ever, now that she knows my mom hates my wife, we know its partly due to her hating my mom, but wife has been ok with it so far.) I didnt talk to my parents for a few weeks after, because I knew they just wanted to see if they could be nosey and judge my wife's mother.
My mother eventually texted my wife and I saying she was praying for my mil. I responded with just "thank you." That was all. My mil is doing alright now, but I never told them anything about it.
My wife and I did though read through a book about mother-in-law and daughter-in-law relationships and how to repair them over the past few months, and I decided with my wife to send the two books to my mother for mothers day, (the only first she got, and a few weeks early). I sent the book (Related by Chance, Family by Choice: Transforming Mother-in-law and Daughter-in-law relationships" by Deb DeArmond) and the Boundaries book (Boundaries Updated and Expanded Edition: When to say yes, how to say no to take control of your life, by Henry Cloud), to my mother with a gift receipt from Amazon with personal message that said, "The best chapters are ___. Cooking food is not the only way to have a relationship, you know that, you taught me it. These books can help & the email lays it all out. You MUST respect (my wife) as my wife. From (me)". I made sure the gift receipt was sent to her email also. In late April my mother texted me "thank you for the books" after she got them and I didn't respond.
Our counselor did say I might should text or call my mother on mother's day. We looked through the email folders, and realized that my mother has continued to send judgmental devotionals to my wife, and on May 5 my mother forwarded to me a chain mail guilt trip email about time, (and she knows I don't really check my email... first time she has actually emailed me and not my wife in years). She never once typed out a single word to my wife, other then telling my wife that the accountant sold his business in Jan. I also reviewed some of the comments from my previous post. I did call my mother on mother's day, and I think I Grey rocked pretty well! I didn't answer any questions really, and mostly just said "happy mothers day".
My wife is proud of me, and while we both are still struggling with emotions surrounding this, I think we are both steadily feeling more confident and free. We mostly don't think about them, and I refuse most calls from them (I might call back 1/3 times, but they used to call every day/week) and I ignore most texts. So I guess I am Very low contact, and my wife is currently no contact. After my sister's rant, I basically decided she is mostly dead to me. She has never tried to maintain or have a relationship with me, I always called or texted her, and for her to blindly believe my mother's bs, and to scream like that, was a serious line crossed. I refuse to really speak to her until she apologizes to both me and my wife, but she has not contacted me again since the phone call and I don't expect her to for months/years if ever. She is not the apologizing type, and neither of us expect that relationship to get better. My sister won't admit that she is wrong in this, and will probably try to pretend nothing happened after another year or so, and I am sick of my sister treating me this way, so I've just decided she is no longer a part of my life.
We are not sure how long the "peace" will last, we both kind of expect guilt tripping about not traveling for holidays or something this year, but I think my mother and sister will realize how much of a line they crossed when we don't visit for a few years, and as I keep moving farther away from them. I don't anticipate calling them or answering a call more than twice in the next 6 months, and I'm starting to feel free.
I appreciate all of your comments and all of the advice. We do anticipate that there might be updates if pregnancy happens, or as we go through the months and years, but thank you again for all of your comments. My wife did help me write this up and edit it, since I am dyslexic.
Thank you.

This is an update to the post I made back in October. We both use mostly throwaways for these issues, and we do not give any permission for people to share our story outside of the these forums. Please do not make a video or anything, we’ve seen and heard a bunch of those and we don't want this to potentially get back to our family. I'm still struggling with my emotions about this, I never really thought my mother would be this heartless, so please be respectful, I'm not really talking to them much at all, and this has been difficult for both of us.
Too long didn't read: we confronted my mother about respect, my sister cut me out of her life, my wife is now NC with my family, and I'm VLC with my family, and things have never been better between my wife and I!
My original post is here: https://www.reddit.com/motherinlawsfromhell/comments/y9uqkk/confronting\_mil\_about\_respect/?utm\_source=share&utm\_medium=android\_app&utm\_name=androidcss&utm\_term=1&utm\_content=share\_button
https://www.reddit.com/JUSTNOMIL/comments/y9y36f/cw\_confronting\_mother\_about\_respect/?utm\_source=share&utm\_medium=android\_app&utm\_name=androidcss&utm\_term=1&utm\_content=share\_button
And the follow-up post by my wife (crimsongoldsky) made here:
https://www.reddit.com/motherinlawsfromhell/comments/zci177/re\_confronting\_mil\_about\_respect/?utm\_source=share&utm\_medium=android\_app&utm\_name=androidcss&utm\_term=1&utm\_content=share\_button
https://www.reddit.com/JUSTNOMIL/comments/zci4on/re\_confronting\_mil\_about\_respect/?utm\_source=share&utm\_medium=android\_app&utm\_name=androidcss&utm\_term=1&utm\_content=share\_button
Picking up were we left off:
My mother kept sending gifts without asking, then we asked her to stop. She didn't. I also tried to talk with my mother about her non- response to the main confrontation that happened in late Oct 2022, which my wife discussed in her post. My mother kept pretending nothing was wrong. I had talked for 10 minutes, and 5 minutes each between October and January and she hadn’t addressed anything yet. A week before my 8th wedding anniversary (January), I texted my mother after she had tried to call (and then emailed my wife a one sentence line about the accountant retiring). I texted her and said "Hey its been a while since we have really talked. Was wondering where we stand?" She did not respond to the text.
The night of my 8th wedding anniversary (January) she bought $250 concert tickets to a type of music we dont like, and she emailed them to my wife the next morning. We had a schedule conflict for the date of the concert (a few days later), and the musician didn't allow you to sell the tickets again. She had texted on our anniversary to both of us "happy anniversary!" (We didn’t respond) But she never checked schedule, and I was pissed that she was continuing to send gifts and ignoring the real conversation (we couldn’t even find anyone to give the tickets too). I know I possibly should have just ignored it, but the current mostly peaceful time wouldn't have come about if I hadn’t.
I texted her the evening of the day after our anniversary, "Have not heard from you other than to tell us (accountant) has sold his business, then out of the blue buying tickets to a music person we have never heard of is not cool. We have plans for (concert date) and hope you can get your money back. You need to ask before buying something like a pressure washer or tickets to something, we may already have it or have plans. The gifts without communication needs to stop. Sending random items with no questions asked, scheduled checked, ect. Seems like a love bombing tactic we have read about in the boundaries book we have been reading. People mature, grow, and change throughout life. (Wife) and I have been doing that. Respect is still lacking. We plan to move on without you in our lives until the time that you actually want to work on a relationship. If that never happens, then we hope you have a good life."
In the 30 minutes between my text and her responses, she apparently was telling my sister what I had texted her.
The kicker though, and the straw that broke the camels back, Was about 10 minutes after I sent my text about how this wasn't ok, (20 minutes before my mom responded) my sister, who has never really tried to have a relationship with me, let alone my wife (I don't think she even spoke to my wife or really responded for the entire relationship... though we have been in the same room a bunch.) called me. My sister didn't let me get a word in really, and yelled/cried at me. That I was disrespecting our mother, that are request for space is unwarranted (a request for space from my parents is something my mom keeps spreading, but is completely untrue. We didn’t request space we requested respect) I had made our mother cry, it was all apparently my wife's fault... (never once can they even consider that I myself made the choice), I owe my parents everything in my life because they acted kind of like parents, I shouldn’t be letting (my wife) lead me down this disrespectful road, and how (my sister) was hoping to get married this year and she now couldn't have me in her wedding (she isn't engaged even)(she had ignored my wife and refused to even respond to my wife asking her multiple times to be a bridesmaid at our wedding, I have planned to not be a groomsmen in my sister’s wedding since then...), that I had crossed a huge line, I was an asshole, and that she has seen every message and email my wife has ever sent her or my mom (unsure if true) and basically that I was not a part her life for now until the (implied by her) divorce...
I am not a confrontational person, but this made my blood boil. My sister has always been a hot head. But I was so angry it was hard to believe. My sister kept talking over me also, just like my mother and my sister keep claiming my wife does. They still wouldn’t listen to me. I was trying to tell her how it really was and how disrespectful her calling me was, and I am not sure she heard much. Basically all I got in is that what (my sister) has probably heard is not even close to the full story, she should apparently read the boundaries book also, and she hadn't been any nicer than my mom to my wife or I, and that if that's how she really felt then fine, a huge line was crossed, but not by me. My sister said I will regret this decision, and she will make sure of it, and then my sister hung up on me.
My mother later texted again, 10 minutes after my sister hung up.
My mother's response in a few texts was (these are directly copied from the text app), "The gift was nothing like that. I just thought you might enjoy it. I used to be able to give you anything I wanted to give you. That's what gifts are... whether it's money for vehicles, education, or tickets to a concert, it's a gift." (Text 2) "no I can't get my money back. Please share with someone who may need a little Jesus time!!! He is a great guy!!!" (Text 3) "just saw your message from (day before wedding anniversary). We are doing great!!!!" (Ignored the actual question of where do we stand, and the statement of her ignoring the real issue...) (Text 4) "I'm going to see (artist) in (a coastal city) tomorrow with some friends and I am so excited!!!!! Just wanted you to experience it!!!!"
I did not respond to any of these texts from my mother, and she did not in any way let on that she is spreading rumors and half-truths behind our backs... we did not respond for days.
My wife and I took those days to write everything out. If you would like a redacted (for our privacy and anonymousness) version of what we sent, we might can provide a message. We wrote out together a multiple page email to my mother. Noting all the times she or my sister has disrespected us (she has asked for examples in the past), a link to a mother and son healthy relationship guide, the book Boundaries we had read, a huge part about how my wife does not control me like they claim, how they hurt us both, and how I was absolutely not OK with my mother and sister talking behind our backs and my sister calling me that way. We said if there was any misunderstanding of what I had texted that day, my mother should have contacted me but she didn’t, and that "Its concerning that (my mother) has this much trouble being truthful with us."
We continued by saying she still hadn't discussed anything directly with us. We mentioned we are frustrated that they are continuing to ignore it. My wife wrote out a big part of it, listing how she/we know they don't like her, including that they passed judgement and decided to ignore her and judge her before they even met her.
She wrote it out very elegantly and said she is willing to forgive and move on in a positive relationship if they choose to, but the choice is there's, and she absolutely will bit have a problem without them in her life if that is their choice.
We then stated some boundaries.
First, if we have kids, we both get the right to veto and set boundaries regarding the other's family. As in if one of us doesn't feel like someone gets to meet the kids, or babysit, or whatever, we will discuss it, but we will mostly follow it. Aka we have veto power over the others family/friends when it comes to our kids, until at least our future kids are old enough to decide for themselves. We said that for a relationship with our future kids, my family will NEED to at the very least respect my wife as my wife, the mother, a human, and as part of the family. We would also have to be able to believe that they will treat our kids fairly, and get to a point where we can trust that they aren't speaking badly about us etc. We also stated that currently they have shown (and continue to show) the complete opposite... and unless serious changes are made, we doubt it will happen. My wife has already vetoed any relationship between our future kids and them until they can treat us both with respect.
Second, my wife stated that since they have been so awful about this, no current changed behavior, and currently are blaming her for everything, she has chosen to remove herself from the situation. I am allowed to have whatever relationship I want that doesnt involve her or our future kids, but she doesnt see a point in continuing to try for a relationship with them when they have treated her so badly. She asked for an apology and/or significant changed behavior (with a caveat that it will still be frosty if they refuse to apologize, but a relationship can move forward without one). She stated that she has blocked them all on social media (she did, and frankly she is the only one who ever posts on Facebook etc. So they never see anything but my profile picture now, cause I don't care to share with them, and she always posts and tags me. I'm not big into computers and only decided to log into reddit because I wanted to stay strong for mothers day, and I re-read some of the comments on my post). She also stated that until there is significant changed behavior (my mother doesn't know it means literally just calling her a few times to try to just have a normal conversation, or something with actual care, consistently for 6 months, but still its something we both thought my mother will not do. My wife has been extremely correct on this. She will still not let them have a big role in our future kids life without an apology.) Or an apology, she won't talk to them, respond to them, remind me to call them (and I normally didn't call without reminders from her), or visit with them, all emails from them are routed straight into a separate inbox we dont really check. I never will visit without her, so they have currently lost all visit privileges.
My wife also stated that this will also including any discussion and disclosures if she becomes pregnant. We will not mention a pregnancy to them, or anything about a pregnancy to them, until the apology and significant changed behavior. She did state that she might reconsider after a child is born, about if they are *told* about a child. (We are not expecting yet btw). Currently that means that if they find out about a pregnancy, and their first grandchild, it will be when we post an announcement on Facebook at 3 months, if we even decide to do that [and from a third party, we have discovered that someone not blocked (only a few possibilities) is being a flying monkey and feeding information. We have not determined who yet, but we are working on it.]
Lastly we stated that whatever path forward they choose is THEIR choice, and we can move forward if they so choose.
My mother never responded. She has acknowledged that she has read it. The email was sent on January 29.
My wife for her part, has held firm on her boundaries.
And while we are still hurt by my families’ actions, every day that goes by we grow stronger together. We are currently trying for children, and have been attending counseling together. Since the email was sent, I have talked to my father twice, he has not brought up anything about it, but just alludes to "checking up on me" and wanting to talk about his work... I am suspicious, and don’t say much. I'm still keeping him at arm’s length. My wife has listened in to all 5 my phone calls since Jan with my family. I asked her too. My wife has been OK with me talking to them every once in a while, as long as I mostly gray rock, and not let them get any real info. I don't really enjoy talking to them at all any more, but it's been hard trying deal with the emotions.
My mother has been more distant than ever. She has called a few times since the email, I spoke to her the first time about 2 weeks after the email, it was a 5 min phone call. She just asked how I was. Nothing about the issues. I was sad and annoyed. The second time, at the end of March, she tried to do the same, but I turned the discussion to the issues and she said she didn't think responding to the email would help. She also stated that she had asked my sister about the phone call (ignoring my question of why she was communicating with my sister instead of us), and said that my sister had reported that (my sister) had said "nothing that wasn't true." My mother doubted my sister had said what she said, and then further tried to flip the script completely on me, trying to guilt me into coming back and twisting the entire sets of conversations back on me. [My mother does not know that we have legally recorded (we both live in one party recording states) recordings of all the phone calls except the surprise one from my sister, and transcripts, so I know she thinks I've forgotten what I said in October and wanted me to remember something that wasn’t true to make me feel guilty] it didnt work.
Quote from my mother in the March phone call.
"I just try to stay out of yalls hair, always have. I didnt know that we visited too often (never ever said, in fact opposite has been said repeatedly in the past 2 years), I figured yall lived up there for years. And weve only come up 3 times. I didnt think that was too often, maybe yall thought it was." I refuted it, saying, that we never said that and asked if she had been talking to my sister about us, and mentioned that my sister had called and yelled at me. My mother, "I knew from the email that she had called you. I asked her what she had said and she said she didnt say anything that wasnt true. That was all she said." (Evaded the question, said with a smug tone of voice) I told my mother basically what my sister had said and my mother doubted my sister had said it, and mentioned that she would have to talk to my sister about my sister throwing me out of her life. I was still a bit flabbergasted by my mother being completely unfazed and lying about things and said we were trying to get to a better relationship where my wife is welcomed. My mother, "well im sorry (my wife) does not feel welcome. I know I try to do what I can to make (my wife) feel welcome. I do what (my maternal grandmother) would have done. I try to cook the things she likes. I try to, I guess thats the best I know how to do." Thats an exact quote. I was stunned. My maternal grandmother liked my wife. Complimented her earnestly, asked her questions earnestly, and defended my wife against a different family member. Also, my wife doesn't like the food my mom makes.
I tried to refute it, and mentioned we should maybe talk all of this out with a 3rd party mediator, but my mother conveniently was getting caught in a hail storm (We verified via weather channel) and had to get off the phone. I realized through that guilt trippy phone call that she completely twisted everything in the email and in previous texts and calls to try to make me feel bad and talk to her more. These realizations have helped me work through my emotions about all of this.
In late March/April, my wife's mother had medical issues and was hospitalized and had 2 emergency surgeries. My wife put on Facebook asking for prayers. This is how we found out there are flying monkeys on Facebook. Suddenly my mother had called 2 times, my dad 2 times, and my grandmother once (I answered my grandmother, I didn't give her any real info, and she said she is sorry my mother is being this way, but she loves us both and is praying for us. My normally evil grandmother is being nicer to us then ever, now that she knows my mom hates my wife, we know its partly due to her hating my mom, but wife has been ok with it so far.) I didnt talk to my parents for a few weeks after, because I knew they just wanted to see if they could be nosey and judge my wife's mother.
My mother eventually texted my wife and I saying she was praying for my mil. I responded with just "thank you." That was all. My mil is doing alright now, but I never told them anything about it.
My wife and I did though read through a book about mother-in-law and daughter-in-law relationships and how to repair them over the past few months, and I decided with my wife to send the two books to my mother for mothers day, (the only first she got, and a few weeks early). I sent the book (Related by Chance, Family by Choice: Transforming Mother-in-law and Daughter-in-law relationships" by Deb DeArmond) and the Boundaries book (Boundaries Updated and Expanded Edition: When to say yes, how to say no to take control of your life, by Henry Cloud), to my mother with a gift receipt from Amazon with personal message that said, "The best chapters are ___. Cooking food is not the only way to have a relationship, you know that, you taught me it. These books can help & the email lays it all out. You MUST respect (my wife) as my wife. From (me)". I made sure the gift receipt was sent to her email also. In late April my mother texted me "thank you for the books" after she got them and I didn't respond.
Our counselor did say I might should text or call my mother on mother's day. We looked through the email folders, and realized that my mother has continued to send judgmental devotionals to my wife, and on May 5 my mother forwarded to me a chain mail guilt trip email about time, (and she knows I don't really check my email... first time she has actually emailed me and not my wife in years). She never once typed out a single word to my wife, other then telling my wife that the accountant sold his business in Jan. I also reviewed some of the comments from my previous post. I did call my mother on mother's day, and I think I Grey rocked pretty well! I didn't answer any questions really, and mostly just said "happy mothers day".
My wife is proud of me, and while we both are still struggling with emotions surrounding this, I think we are both steadily feeling more confident and free. We mostly don't think about them, and I refuse most calls from them (I might call back 1/3 times, but they used to call every day/week) and I ignore most texts. So I guess I am Very low contact, and my wife is currently no contact. After my sister's rant, I basically decided she is mostly dead to me. She has never tried to maintain or have a relationship with me, I always called or texted her, and for her to blindly believe my mother's bs, and to scream like that, was a serious line crossed. I refuse to really speak to her until she apologizes to both me and my wife, but she has not contacted me again since the phone call and I don't expect her to for months/years if ever. She is not the apologizing type, and neither of us expect that relationship to get better. My sister won't admit that she is wrong in this, and will probably try to pretend nothing happened after another year or so, and I am sick of my sister treating me this way, so I've just decided she is no longer a part of my life.
We are not sure how long the "peace" will last, we both kind of expect guilt tripping about not traveling for holidays or something this year, but I think my mother and sister will realize how much of a line they crossed when we don't visit for a few years, and as I keep moving farther away from them. I don't anticipate calling them or answering a call more than twice in the next 6 months, and I'm starting to feel free.
I appreciate all of your comments and all of the advice. We do anticipate that there might be updates if pregnancy happens, or as we go through the months and years, but thank you again for all of your comments. My wife did help me write this up and edit it, since I am dyslexic.
Thank you.

If you haven’t seen my original post you can read it here! Thanks to everyone that commented and gave such good advice. I have an update and it’s unfortunately more insane than the last. This part needs some background.
My MIL has been living with us since September, we bought a house and fully renovated it while she was living with us. We got into an issue while moving because DH took two days off to Reno the house before our move and on the first day she told us her storage unit was up and needed to move her stuff that day (she knew he had the day off for the house). He helped, it took the whole day. She thought I was an ass for being upset. She’s also been weird about me having security cameras and wanted me to take the Google homes out of my house. Accused me of going through her computer.
Meanwhile I can hear her come up onto the landing to listen to us talk, one day we had a fight and she was right at the door. If we have people over she will stand on the landing and listen. It was annoying but whatever, thought she’s nosy. I’m nosy (probably disrespectfully so), so can’t call the kettle black. DH and I bicker, I don’t like letting things sit. If I’ve got a problem I’m pretty quick to say it.
My MIL has been texting DH saying I am mean spirited, rude, selfish and for some reason is saying I called my best friend evil (I’m sure the homies and I were having a hearty giggle and were joking around).
THEN my DH informed me that about two months ago she came up when I wasn’t in the house and told him he deserves better and should leave me 😮 the audacity! Ironically while he was gaming, which is usually the source of our fights. Which she obviously knows?
Just wanted to air more laundry. I’m trying to watch myself and be mature, I don’t even know what to do about it. We did ask her to leave by June. She said I’m kicking her out (yes) but she’s already looking for places (tf?) It’s too late to break us up, we’ve been together for almost a decade like?? Come on??

Original post here:
https://www.reddit.com/JUSTNOMIL/comments/132latd/advice_from_veteran_jnmil/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button
(tl;dr of Original post: thinking of moving in with bf of 1.5 yrs, his mother is not having it and has more control over him than I think he has of himself)
Update:
So after mulling over advice recieved from this community as well as 2 of my very good friends... I'm taking a huge step back from this whole relationship.
I sat him down and had a serious conversation where I finally got through to him, at least a little. Gave him "When He's Married to Mom" by Ken Adams. I told he needs to read it and take a good look at himself. After reading 2 chapters he sat down with me and cried. He really hadnt realized how his controlling but "doting" mother has affected him.
He said he made a plan to confront his mother again and ask her to sign a legal contract to rid them both of being financially obligated to the house. Of course she refused and told him that while she wont sign the paper, she will "eventually be able to be more financially independent, and when that happens, they can either sell the house together or she can take it over." It upset me to know that agian, he doormatted himself. She is so selfish, I could not even fathom of ever A) being financially dependent on my own son and B) being so selfish as to not want him to be in a happy healthy relationship. He often tells me he's the most happy hes ever been when we're together. What an egocentric POS mother. Serious YUCK vibes all around.
Yesterday we got into another argument about how I feel like I'm always going to be in 2nd place. It made me realize that he honestly IS NOT READY for this relationship. He played the part REALLY well. Amazing with my son, family, and friends, caring for me mentally (I have my own family/depression/anxiety issues) and just being generally good to me. But the relationship with his mom is preventing him from truly being a 50/50 partner with me.
I didnt talk to him all day, he finally called me in the evening and I had the the talk with him. He gave me the "i dont want to give up on us" spiel. I do feel empathy for his heartbreak but facts are facts and I cant ignore them. This is none of my sons fault, so he can still keep in contact with him. They both have eachothers ph#s so I wont have to have much, if any, contact with him.
Honestly I feel SSOOOO.... relieved. Surprisingly I am taking this better than I thought I would. It might be just letting go mentally of a situation I was stuck in. Im sure I will still get lonely and miss him at certain points. Maybe have a realization in a couple days and ugly cry for a bit but my friends are excellent support systems. If anything, this will maybe give him a little reality check. I do hope that he finds someone in the future, or at least is aware of how he needs to behave as not not hurt another woman or her potential kid(s).
So... TL;DR: you win, you selfish wench. At the cost of your sons happiness. Congratulate yourself, because I know you will.

Rare/Unddit/Reve
TL:DR: OP feels bad that she didn't protect her younger sister from her MIL's bullying, but I feel like OP's actions were just as cringy and likely to embarrass her sister as the MILs were.

While there she tried for ten mins to force my sis to eat doughnuts…after the previous visit where she sat my sister down and “helpfully” told her she was too fat and to cut down on junk food. Cut to today she could not stand that my sister was refusing her offer to eat doughnuts and in front of people too. She repeatedly and aggressively kept trying to make my sis eat making the whole table quiet and it wasnt until I came downstairs and stepped in and said “My baby sis is on a diet thank you” that she shut up. She couldnt take a full refusal tho so she switched to getting me to eat the donut which I did happily yum.

That just circles it back to the sister feeling self-conscious about her weight though. What's wrong with, "She said she didn't want one, let it go."

Then the photos. She decided we were to have a photo shoot in the living room and my lil sis didnt wanna partake. MIL kept getting more and more annoyed by sis refusing to get in the pic, she JUST WOULD NOT LET UP. I finally just asked my lil sis if she would mind getting in one and I promise I’d just take it on my phone so noone would get sent my sis’s face (she didnt have makeup on and she doesnt like her face being shown on social media). Sis was relieved and trusted me to take one pic of her and my MlL together. She knew that my MIL would probs be trying to send pics everywhere to people and was feeling very uncomfortable by my MILs attention all evening.

So you still made her get into a damn picture?
There's more, but it's depressing. I feel like MIL and OP both suck, just for different reasons.

It’s been quite a while since I have posted but figured it was time since my husband also posted today a short update. You can view the original post here and the update from last April here. Whoever reads all this is a saint!
Since last April, here is the up to date. I went against my better judgement and went to DH’s parents’ house last April to see his aunt and uncle who were in town. It went as expected. I took the advice I got from a lot of you and wore my LO, who was 4 months at that point. During the actual visit, things were awkward and uncomfortable but not horrible. I did let my MIL and FIL both hold my LO when we were alone. I was really pressured into by DH’s aunt, but whatever. I allowed it. Then before we left, they asked if they could get some pictures. DH said sure, but I was going to still wear my LO and not let everyone pass her around. After we went home is when things got ridiculous. We found out from my BIL that my MIL was telling everyone that I didn’t let her hold my LO, which is a lie. They also cut me out of the pictures they took. Fast forward, we didn’t talk to his parents again until September. There was still attempts on MIL’s part. She kept sending stuff in the mail and texting DH. He kept telling her that we would move forward once we received an apology. Come September, BIL reached out and said he wanted to come over to talk with us about the whole situation, so he did. All he was doing was being her flying monkey. He came with all the texts printed out between DH and MIL, DH and FIL, and Me and both of them (which wasn’t many since I wasn’t having much contact.) He also came with screenshots of my Facebook. With Facebook, MIL deleted DH, myself, and my entire family. Shortly after, I did the same thing to the rest of my in-laws because it was hurtful seeing all the posts they were posting. BIL threw a fit and claimed that I “restricted” them all from Facebook and when I told him, no I actually deleted you all, he kept calling me a liar until I actually showed him my Facebook. I don’t understand why it was okay for my MIL to do it, but I was out of line when I did it. BIL did apologize for not being there for us and not being apart of LO’s life the past 11 months. He said he didn’t know how to handle this situation. Whatever. At one point he told DH that he was acting just like his biological father, who was an abusive and violent man. That really hurt DH. Long story short, we told BIL that all we want is an apology. He said that MIL doesn’t even know what she needs to apologize for, which we said yea, that’s the problem! A few hours after he left, DH and I get a group text from MIL saying “After talking to “BIL” I now know what I am supposed to apologize for.” It was total BS.
After that DH texts back and sets up a time for us to go to their house and talk everything through. After a lot of thought, I decided not to go and DH went by himself. He was there for about 5 hours. From what he said, his mom was super apologetic and was crying and just kept saying how sorry she was. There were a few things he mentioned that she said were red flags to me and I instantly had this gut feeling that he was just manipulated. Such as still shifting the blame to me. Boy was I right, unfortunately.
I agreed to let MIL and FIL come to our house, during my LOs nap so the 4 of us could talk a few weeks after that. I spent time writing up what I wanted to say so I could cover everything I wanted to. As typical of a narcissist, anytime I brought up something she did or said, she deflected, played victim, and shifted the blame back on me. She was rude, mean, and aggressive towards me. The silver lining is DH was there to witness all of it. At the end of the talk, I threw my hands up and she said she wasn’t going to apologize when she didn’t do anything wrong. My FIL spoke up and said we can agree to disagree and decided to try and take a step forward and start light communication with them again. The people Pleaser in me will be the death of me! So this conversation happened in October and I left not feeling any real resolve but again hoped maybe things would be at least civil for my LO and DH. It wasn’t even 3 weeks later then the BS started back up again. MIL started using BIL even more as her flying money and he was starting to call quite a bit trying to manipulate and guilt trip DH. MILs behaviors didn’t change, but got more passive aggressive. I would say her behaviors and actions also happened behind the scenes more too. When it came to them seeing LO, since Halloween of 2022, they have seen her 4 times, all of which, I initiated and invited them to (a trunk or treat, a few days before xmas, swimming at the end of Jan, and an easter egg drop in April). They never want anything to do with her unless it’s convenient for them or they can use LO to make themselves look good. MIL is one of those social media grandmas. They have asked a few times in between to see her, but it was events that were not appropriate for a child, things we weren’t comfortable with, or last-minute asks. For example, asking us to bring LO to a hunting banquet so they can “show her off.” Or calling us a few hours before asking to come over, even though we’ve told them before we need more notice than that. There’s also been some passive-aggressive behavior towards me. When we went swimming (I invited them to come and they just watched), she started asking me about that and how often we go and if DH comes. DH told her that he doesn’t come and that is something LO and I do together when he is working. Then after swimming she makes this huge deal about how she bought ME a pool pass. I thought that was super nice of her because I know they are pricy. But the next time I went and tried to used that, I wasn’t allowed to because she put it in DHs name. In my opinion, that was deliberate. She is also one that likes to post passive aggress posts on Facebook.
The final straw for me was the Egg Drop. On top of MIL and FIL, DH’s grandma, grandpa, aunt and uncle who live out of town came. (this is a different aunt and uncle from last year, if you read my previous posts). That was fine that they came. But we know MIL was talking poorly about me beforehand because DHs Aunt attacked me (verbally) at the egg drop, in front of my LO, MIL and GMIL about stuff that she wouldn’t have known about if MIL hadn’t said anything, and of course, MIL or GMIL didn’t step in or say anything when she was verbally attacking me. (We were invited to go to MILs house on Easter Day but chose not to based on past experiences. It’s also hard with LOs nap schedule and them living 1.5 hrs away. However, DH told MIL we weren’t coming because he needed to have a day to relax since he is working so much AND going to school. Which is why I reached out and invited them to the Egg Drop.) Anyways, DHs Aunt starts an argument with me in the middle of the egg drop about how I am letting my LO control me and I should be controlling her and how rules are meant to be broken. All over the fact that my LO take a nap…Let me mention that she is 16 months old here. Then she starts in on me about how I’m the reason to blame that we won’t be at Easter tomorrow. DH said he heard my “mom voice” and realized that something was going on and he stepped in and shut it down. On top of that, I was once again cropped out of the easter pictures with my LO. It was at that point I decided to go NC. I have been so stressed out, I have been getting sick, having headaches, and have lost a lot of weight. I of course, let DH know that I don’t expect him to go NC as well, just needed him to support my decision. Well today, he went NC. You can see his post here. I am so proud of him. He is struggling with this decision, as to be expected. But We both finally took the step and are putting ourselves first. That is a hard thing to do as a people pleaser.